[Suggestion] Upgrading the map and Situational Awareness (SA)

So I'm at Andvari Biolab, and I want to go to Mani Biolab. So I see this:


All this tells me is that the TR are capturing it, and the hotspots show me how hard the fight there is. The hotspots indicate how much weapons are fired in the region (or that's what I understand of them), and update once in a while. But they don't tell you if it's a 4 Prowlers with Gatekeepers or a guy on an AI MANA turret. So basically all I know after looking at this is that something is happening at the southeast and the TR have the point.
Not visible on the screenshot atm is that on the southwest just across the road there's another hotspot. And the problem here is that I can't know if it's allies or enemies who are stationed there. So in effect it barely tells me anything!


So I made a mock-up of what I would like to see:


The Hotspot system is upgraded. Instead of showing weapons discharge, it shows the general whereabouts of friendlies and enemies that have been detected somehow (detected by Q-spot, proxy/scout radar, recon equipment or simple auto-detect of firing a weapon). This only has to update once a minute or so, and doesn't need to be very accurate.

Vehicles are shown with a special border, infantry are shown without a border (overlap gets stripes or something), and aircraft only get a general facing so players can see an average approach/escape the aircraft use and know there's aircraft around. The overall facing (or firing direction(s)) is also indicated, so players know that is being focused on and what not.
As additions, special markers could be present to indicated deployed Sunderers, AV/G2A weapons and PMB buildings.
Again, this is just a mock-up, so the colors and borders are just to give you an idea what it looks like.


Who would this help?

• In general players would be able to see how a fight is progressing. This is especially handy on the map after death, as players would be capable of gauging what unit they need to pick and where help is needed.
• Aircraft would be capable of seeing where enemies are before they reach a base, and can plan their attack.
• Scouting would be useful. Spotting an advancing vehicle column 500m away from a base is currently useless, but with this system people would be able to see the armor column on the map and react accordingly.
• For anyone giving orders to anyone else. It allows players to see what their leader sees and knows. For example if the leader says "destroy those vehicles" while you are all the way on the other end of an AMP station, you can spot what vehicles he means (and waypoints and such have a much better meaning when dumped on top of an enemy vehicle/infantry concentration).
• Better planning your route. If you know where enemy concentrations are you can know which one's you want to avoid and which one's you can engage.

Imho the map should not give any hint about enemy forces operating in the area. That's s job for a Valkyrie with Scout Radar, not an information people should get that easily while sitting at the Warpgate.

From this point of view I am very radical: imo we shouldn't even see population pie charts.

You are correct that it should perhaps not be easy. Would you concede, however, that having absolutely no means of long range reconnaissance beyond word of mouth can be strifling? A Valkyrie with Scout Radar is fine, of course; but, it is contingent upon forces other than that Valkyrie being within reportable distance to see the benefit of the Scout Radar. That would make it a lackluster forward scouting unit if "forward" is restricted to spitting distance.

Well, this system would in effect make your scout Valkyrie actually useful.
As Fate mentions, currently your scout radar Valk is only useful for the nearby players. The moment it's outside of the 'normal' radar range where blips don't show up anymore, your scout radar is useless for that player. And the game itself would have an immense boost in the decision making of players if they actually can plan ahead when they approach an area. Even your scout Valk would be able to spot enemy concentrations in advance, have an idea which area's are already scouted and which one's could use a Scout Valk as support.
This could in fact benefit from having the pie-charts be tied to your Scout Valk and other recon equipment. Say there's 40 enemies tramping around your base, but only 12 have been detected? Well the pie chart shows an enemy presence of 1-12. This instantly boosts teamwork, and makes scouting a much more vital role to the game.

All I'm asking is for the information that is already there to be displayed. A tank or infantryman that isn't spotted won't be shown on the hotspot radar. An enemy tank, aircraft or infantryman that's moving around a lot will easily be able to move out of it's general area indication due to the infrequency of the updates. The only things that are displayed, are units that have been detected somehow, and all your friendly units. And since this is just a general location, it doesn't give a big strain on the server.

Fog of war is one of the things that makes gaming interesting.

There are plenty of games out there that play the game while one watches. PS2 should not be one of them.

It still exists.
But imagine if you were in a strategy game, and unless you were within meters, overhead or not, of the ally that saw the enemy combatant, structure or what-have-you, said Enemy was literally invisible.

As presently, scouting only achieves things when people are using Voice comms in general, between small groups, for anything resembling proper information on Known enemy positions.
Unless the commander is the one flying around, they have to rely on the map... which has the least data available most of the time, beyond a few yards.

Actually having spotting from the front line, mean something to those behind it, doesn't erase fog of war.
It actually lets spotting be useful for more than just those next to you.
Which honestly is pretty crap - Let alone when allies aren't all in one big *** voice chat able to speak to command.
Heaven forbid you have allies ahead of you, that aren't keen on proxi chatting down the line back to the local Commander.

Definitely appreciate the feedback. Obviously there isn't quite agreement even among folks posting in this thread but we are of course appreciative this is being thought about and discussed.

I don't like updates on enemy positions unless heavily entrenched but even then you should simply be getting intel fron other NC via smoke. The thing is none of the smokes mean anything unless a label is attached like enemies here or rep this and etc.

Beyond that, I would like to know if air or armor was in the area, just by smokes not actual map updates, some tanks rely on being unseen, a single spot from one infil standing 500 meters away shouldn't reveal the tank to all NC ever. Personally, it's why I don't like thermals highlighting vehicles so far out either, that's generally how ambush vehicles get kills.

Seeing you guys posting here warms our hearts!

It sort of defeats the point of equipping stealth module on your vehicles if the map not only tells them you that you are there but also tells them what your loadout is in detail. This, you know, encourages the sort of gameplay where one guy just watches the map screen and tells people what is going on. Then if stealth works the information on the map will be more unreliable and you will not use it to decide where to redeploy.

Is this going to be enjoyable for new players? Like a BR10 pulls a lightning, it immediately flashes on the global map, then 10 BR120 liberators rush to it and fight over the certs.

Adding more information is a weird psychological thing. Is a realistic picture of the battlefield just going to break people's spirits and make them log out or play super defensive. Or will it encourage them to come up with really organized strategies.

Where on earth did you get that idea from?
Currently, stealth only protects from the auto-detect range. It doesn't protect against spotting or the auto-detect from firing your weapons (unless you equip a silencer, not possible on vehicles).

This system just shows the general whereabouts of those spots. It doesn't pinpoint you, and the data gets old quickly. If you spot a guy who's driving around (which any self-respecting stealth equipped guy would do) then the 1-minute-updates of this system would always be outdated. Is that a problem? No.

And how on earth would people know what loadout you've got? It's a general map upgrade that lumps as many player and vehicle positions together. There's no mention anywhere of loadouts, and how would you be capable of looking at those loadouts? Hold your mouse over a general area and see the loadouts of the 20 people stationed there?
It still surprises me how people can read these things into an idea. Spotting loadout has absolutely nothing to do with my idea and it's not mentioned anywhere!

What would be wrong with a guy taking the role of commander and sending people around? Players are only visible if they are detected. They aren't auto-detected just for driving into enemy territory. It only happens if they are spotted, drive nearby enemy units without stealth or open fire too close to enemy units. And even then, the fact that the system updates only once a minute or so means that the data works for getting a general idea, which is it's entire point, but can get outdated if players don't keep spotting enemies or if the situation changed between the last update and the new one.

Please read this part again, and tell me where you got the impression that any vehicle or infantry is constantly visible on the radar no matter what they do:

As you can read, it doesn't say "when spawned" or "when walking into enemy territory". It specifically names methods where they light up on the radar anyway. Equipping stealth removes the auto-spot from being nearby enemies so it reduces the chances of you showing up in this system.

It's going to be the best type of fog-of-war.
If you aren't using some kind of scouting/spotting equipment in the area, you don't know what's happening there. Eliminating or avoiding enemy scouts can be immensely important, as can be using scouts. You can even use decoys: Players won't be constantly visible on the radar, so having 4 guys spotted on a mostly empty ridge can throw off the enemy who might think there's a ton more enemies there. In the meantime those 4 guys can already be moving somewhere else.

Playing super-defensive doesn't work. If your enemy is at your gate, you know they are there and you need to destroy the enemy Sunderers. Even in the current game players can use smoke signals and the tactical overlay map (which more and more people are using, and it's wonderful) to show where Sunderers and enemy vehicles or infantry are, and still it can take the entire team to actually punch through and push them away.
All this system does is display the information that's already there, but in a more general way if you aren't nearby. If you are nearby the exact location of the spotted target is shown. If that's not OP, then showing the general location if you are farther away shouldn't be a problem either.

Probably from the part when you said that you thought that to get a better overview of the battlefield you thought it would be good to know the number and type of vehicles and their top guns. Why even bother mentioning the mbt top gun if you get so defensive if it's brought up. Although currently you could get that information from a visual check or the kill spam if you want.

You are generally assuming that this idea would be implemented in exactly the way you specify when not even an internal game designer could be sure of that. It could be a lot easier to make it so instead of saying 12-24 enemy is says 1-12 enemy infantry, 1-4 enemy tanks, 1-4 enemy aircraft not based on spotting but on data. Location data it would be easier to just say, put the icon for the vehicle on the global map if there is network bandwidth.

I said that you would get to know a bit more information. Similar to "here are infantry" or "here are vehicles". You would get the "here are AV weapons" so vehicles can react to it. This doesn't mean you instantly know what exact top-gun (or main gun) they are sporting. You could easily bind this to player-interaction, where players have to designate "Oh I've seen what weapon hey are using, they are using<x>, so I tell my allies by holding the Q-button and selecting it from a radial menu". Then and only then it would show up. Just as an example.

Why assume it's just MBT top-guns? This could just as easily be an AV-loadout aircraft, or a Heavy carrying a G2A launcher. And the reason I'm "defensive" is because you instantly go to the extreme by saying everyone can immediately see what specific loadout everyone has and make up a few assumptions alongside that don't even have anything to do with the suggestion! And when asked about it it's suddenly only about MBT top-guns and not about Sunderer guns, Harasser guns, MAX weapons, Heavy rocketlaunchers or Lightning weapons.

I'm outlining an idea here, and I constantly remind everyone that this isn't the exact idea. I even give potential addons that could be added, but don't have to.

Also, the server is constantly updating the exact location of everyone everywhere at any time. The biggest problem is constantly keeping everyone up to date. They resolve this with render range limits so player PC's and the server aren't overwhelmed by the amount of data they have to send and receive. Keep in mind that if there's 100 players in one area and 1 extra player joins the same area, that the server suddenly has to send the data of that single person to 100 other players, and it has to instantly send the data of 100 players to that single person while simultaneously sending the constantly updated data of the other 100 players to each other. Add another player and it has to send 101 extra packages to that player and to all the others... That's the exponential problem here. Keeping everyone up to date. The server can handle the 900 players individually, but keeping everyone up to date is the problem.
And that's not a problem with my system. The server just checks once a minute "hey, where is everyone, and where have players been spotted in the last minute?". It compiles this, which it doesn't have to hurry about because it doesn't matter if it takes 5 seconds to update everyone, and then does it's normal thing. This is little different than what it's doing now (at least from what I can understand of the system): It keeps itself up to date with how many shots are fired in one area, compiles this and sends the info to everyone on the server regardless of continent they are on once in a while. That's why a Biolab fight that has ended can still have the hotspot indicators all over it a minute or so after the fight has moved on.

So there's no "easier to say, put the icon for the vehicle on the global map if there is network bandwith". That would ruin the entire premise as you would have much more bandwith requirement to keep everyone up to date and whenever the server gets busy the entire system stops functioning altogether.

Why should the enemy not be rewarded for being stealthy?

When guns are involved, staying hidden is a very good idea.

Poor teams have poor communication. Poor teams lose. Why should we expect a computer to take the place of a good team practice?
Why not just have the game play the game for us?

This thread is another excellent example of trying to make the game easier.

We have easy games. Candyland is a very easy game.

Let's make a challenging team game that offers epic battles over large areas.

I'm all up for a better, more informational, map.

Except that's not stealthiness, that's pure lack of info. Currently everyone can be stealthy if they put even tiny effort into being stealthy with anything except air vehicles provided they aren't actively in enemies' line of sight. If this gets implemented, spotting becomes more powerful and gives teams info without using something like proxy chat, which I don't like using (read : I don't like russians spamming the soviet union anthem, earrape version, or obnoxious noise spam of any kind)

Not only that, but actually stealthy players would have more power as more people will focus to the obvious threat. Zerging can now be prevented with things like Orbital Strikes by pin-pointing the zerg's position. There's a whole load of team play enhancements and possibilities with this. It's possible to hit multiple birds with one stone, this could make Valkyries and other vehicles with redundant and no roles actually important to use by making them dedicated spotters.

Fog of war is one of the things that makes gaming interesting? Did you even experience a moment where you and the other guy know where each one of you is? 90% of times I sweat in games is because both me and my adversary know each other's positions as we both put in effort to counter each other. It's single-handedly one of the most tense and skill-based situations you can be in.

Also, an actually stealthy enemy wouldn't have been discovered in the first place, until it was too late...

There is a difference between easiness and quality of life, and there's also a difference between challenge and pointless tedium. The map lacks information most of the time until you spawn in, in which case you have to spend a little more time to realize what's even going on. It does make spotting and actual information collection less valuable.

Information improvement like this can make combat simpler yet deeper. Giving your teammates wherever they are the info on where a tank battalion is can be crucial, and is a form of communication. Another thing that could be added for example is false info, if for example, someone spots me, I'll retreat, the enemy side would know my last known position, I'll set up an ambush, bait the other side and win by exploiting information. More information could also open up the possibility of exploiting the knowledge of being watched, now that's actual thinking. In fact, this would be a buff for skill indirectly for an outside-the-box thinker. More information can benefit anyone.


I don't think that a lot of good can come from making player experience harder just because.

How about if this would be something for platoon leaders? Maybe squad leaders too?

Leading platoons is extremely exhausting and there are plenty of examples of awesome leaders burning out because of it. This would make it easier, sure, but it would make it easier and less stressful for the right person. I mean, this game is 10 times better when good leaders are present and it encourages people to squad up more. More happy players, more people wanting to join in, and generally a stronger and more healthy community.

Then only if in a Platoon, would you have a practical map to work with.
Allies outside of that Platoon or Squad, would be unable to even see what any platoon lead would be seeing, to properly react per orders... which are either text or smoke based.

Add in, that all such data then has to be translated from leaders, to the infantry, tanks, and aircraft... You add more work to the Leaders, as they have to tell every player, let alone if they are the sole commander of the region, where to attack, and what is there.
That'll cause more burn out severely, and not really encourage people to squad up
- As they'd be in the same boat as outside, unless the Squad leader spends their time explaining exactly what they see, and where people need to be, just to use the tactical data properly.

Just to say, they need more tools, but not more data they have to translate to everyone else under them.
Rather than "there's a vehicle group past the hill, flank them" to "See that vehicle group past the hill, flank them"

Which makes following said Order a lot easier - As you at least can see what in blazes, Command is saying exists.
Also a lot quicker for Command, as less data needs to be translated off their map screen, to in-game, letting them do more than just spend half their time describing locations.

In least in my experience, that has always been a pain - Lack of data, followed by having to spend more time on the map just describing it, unless I happen to have the smoke, just to show where in blazes the target is, to Command.
And they wouldn't have to spend as much time, detailing the target... You only have so many way-points, and smoke isn't the most practical thing for quick orders.

What reason would there be to only make this for platoon leaders and perhaps their platoon, if you can make this available to anyone? Why not let everyone benefit?

Take the example I have in the OP. With the hotspots I can easily figure out that the southeast of Mani Tower is occupied by the TR, especially since they captured the point. But in the southwest all I know is that there's something, but I don't know if it's TR or NC (or even some random VS column that wanted to pick off enemies from the side)! I randomly picked it to be the NC. As a TR guy, that information is valuable as it allows them to see where a Sunderer can be placed, or where they need to attack with some AV since it's NC vehicles. If that information wasn't available to the TR guy because he's a random, he will rarely help there unless he gets killed by those tanks. With that information you see more coincidental cooperation between anyone, be it random, squad, platoon or outfit.

Teamwork should never, ever, force players into a squad or platoon unless that's the only way to achieve it. If you can achieve it without a squad or platoon (without cluttering everything), it should be available to everyone!