[Suggestion] Increase Damage Resistance vs. Liberator Cannons (ESF/VALK)

it's not the frequency of dalton OHKs that successfully deters ESFs, it's the credibility of the threat. according to the above proposition, ESF would be able to tank 1 dalton round, and then between FS and nanites, have enough health to tank another round well before the statistical likelyhood that another round will hit. so it's not that dalton libs would be "defenseless" but that it's such a dramatic shift even further in the direction of the ESFs advantage that it begins to look "defenseless" from the perspective of the ESF.

i'm pretty sure that everyone knows how bad the Valkyrie is, but the dalton's relationship to ESFs has nothing to do with it. anyone who thinks that ESFs need more advantages against any unit at all must be astonishingly removed from the reality of live play.

This highlights one of the worst aspects of the game: crazy high skill floor.

A Weapon creates a problem when it has a use that:
1) can only be accessed by a small % of the player base
2) when used by that small % of the playerbase it's game warping powerful

Ideally instead it would have a low skill floor, and with a % of effectiveness relative to skill level. So it would be usable and baseline effective at low skill levels, but would ramp up effectiveness to higher rates (at a diminishing rate) as the player's skill level climbed. (or a low skill, comparable role, alternate Weapon existed that would provide relatively higher results at low skill, but didn't scale as much to provide the power of results possible at the high skill levels of the higher skill Weapon)

Putting crazy high skill floor on Units and Loadouts in the game is why we see Units like Liberator and ESF dominated by a very small number of people, ruining the accessibility of the Air game to the average player.

Flawed argument. Player ability and player choice are in no way comparable. Fail.

How is he comparing valks with engies and libs with dalton?

He's saying that even if 1% of players do x, it's still unbalanced, it's just that they are skewed in different directions.
Valks are balanced around having engies repair them, sure, but libs aren't even balanced around it being full, you can easily solo pilot it and shoot what you need to, the only thing you're losing is a small bit of movement.

So say, valks werent balanced around engies, they'd even be viable over galaxies for transport since they could have troops shooting from the side and the turret gun.
The lib is balanced around the dalton for AA apparently? Why should a belly gun designed for ground bombardment be the sole reason that the lib stays afloat. Shouldn't it be the AA tail gun or support?

I'm actually seeing a lot of pro solo libbing posts here, why should a lib be great at killing ground and air? Why shouldn't the ESF be better off killing libs? Why should libs be able to be run unsupported? It doesn't make sense. It's like running an MBT in the middle of nowhere, you deserve to be destroyed by the next air unit that shows up, why shouldn't ESFs punish lone libs?

It's just all the elitist air users, Liberators are the most powerful vehicle in the game by sheer DPS and survivability, ESF is the most powerful air vehicle due to versatility. ESFs should be designated as anti-air, making them more powerful in this role and less powerful in AV, and Liberators should be made more powerful in AV and AI to compensate... but not AA, a Liberator should have minimal AA capabilities, mostly harassment, which is what the Walker and Hyena provide... the Dalton is somehow considered "AA" to Lib users because they claim it's the best option. The best option is team work... get an ESF escort to protect you, provide support to them with the tail gun. This is a team game, that extends OUTSIDE of your vehicle(A crew of 3 people doesn't make you a team player when you're all together achieving one goal).

The air game is unbalanced and likely never going to change, any attempts to do so and all pilots and gunners in the game scream bloody murder and threaten to quit the game because their powerful vehicles have counters.

The Dalton makes the Top Killer list for things that kill ESFs. So it is clearly a legit ESF killer.
source: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/ (sort by ESF, All BR (all Faction)

DQCraze saying Dalton is only effectively usable A2A-vs-ESFs by a handful of people makes it much worse because it means that these handful of players are singlehandedly killing so many ESFs... which means (1) that each of them must be doing a LOT of ESF killing with it... and (2) the vast number of other players are unable to kill many ESFs with Libs at all. This is a disaster. Both in insanely boosting the killing power of a tiny % of expert users, and in insanely hurting the killing power of the vast majority of players.

PS2 should not be designed for use by a small % of players, unless those small % of players are paying the rent (as *the* paying customers AND/OR as *the* public entertainment that draws paying customers). "Skill" by itself does not mean garbage in terms of being a good customer. Nike doesn't make Basketball shoes in sizes just for NBA players, they make shoes in all (practical) sizes so all those people can wear them properly so that all those people can buy them.

This chart is an example to 2 good models and 1 bad model for the type of game PS2 *needs to be* in order to succeed/survive, for the type of game it currently is. (NOTE: these charts are rough, so bear with me)



I can TOTALLY appreciate that the crazy high skill game of ESFs or Libs is *really* cool to those who have been able to do it, or for those handful of people who like to watch it. And I think that such a thing would be great in a game that could segregate players by skill (so each skill tier could find good gameplay vs. others at the skill level of their choosing), or in a game that was budget and could turn a profit and stay in business with a tiny niche audience and playerbase. But PS2 is a shared world game that needs a massive number of players to turn a profit and stay running, and it needs gameplay that is tuned so that the average gamer can get into and play in that gameplay.

And not only does keeping the average player out of the Air game hurt PS2's playability for the average gamer. But it also warps the combined arms ecosystem and what should be the counters nature of the game.

i see that VS Dalton and NC Dalton appear as accounting for less than 1% of ESF deaths each, while TR Dalton is absent on the "top killers list." meanwhile, all 3 skyguards make a showing at greater than 1% of ESF deaths each, as do phalanx turrets (if your argument is about skill.)

in fact the "Legit ESF killer" list starts at 4.64% of ESF deaths, right below the obvious 6% vehicle collisions and 35% vehicle suicide.

i get that you want to legitimize this phantom menace with statistics but they really just don't bear out. the reason that so many ESF are killed by dalton is because 1) any liberator on the field is attacked by ESF at a rate of 1-2 per minute 2) ESF that get hit by dalton OHK don't get the chance to be counted as a kill for another damage source.

also i notice that VS Right Hand Burster Arms are a menace to ESFs and dampens the air game with a disgustingly overpowered 0.56% kill percentage rivaling even the VS Dalton at 0.57% of ESF deaths. perhaps a balance pass is in need here, so that we can prevent things like VS Right Hand Burster Arm from keeping new players out of the air game.

finally i just want to point out that what you said here:

applies directly to the Dalton. when you're firing straight down on a stationary target, with a pilot who can at least keep your arc range out of the deadzone, you get a baseline effectiveness. you can kill turrets, stationary tanks, hovering libs, bomb sundies. it's basic, but you get some effective use even with a stock lib with dalton. then as "skill" which should really just be replaced with "practice time" increases, so does the effectiveness with which you can use the weapon in non-ideal circumstances such as inverted fadeaway shots, shooting hoverdueling ESFs, lib v lib circle duels, and taking shots in a group fight where priority targets change rapidly and opportunities have vanishingly small windows.

edit, post script.

just for curiosity i looked at the same oracle search for liberator deaths. it's a stikingly similar distribution, with the especially notable similiarity of a ~4% kill rate for each of the most popular ESF noseguns, and a normalized distribution of all the most common damage sources, including liberator weapons, at around 1% of deaths each. seems fairly balanced to me, even if it the balance is a bit skewed in favor of ESFs - in particular teams of them. and again that's fine because all factions have skilled players online at one time or another, and all factions have population advantage at one time or another.

The Devs should just give all ESFs the A2A lockons for free and let the players take care of the Liberator problem.

Liberators are too strong - no matter what.

Too fast, too heavy, too much firepower. And it is all 3 of them that is making em too strong in my eyes.


1) As fast as an Esf, what should be the fastest vehicle in the game?
2) More HP than a MBT... and it is flying. Cheers
3) More Firepower than a MBT... and it still is flying.

Having more A2A lockons wouldnt help too much, i guess... but it might be a parttime-solution. The real problem still is, flying an liberator, there is absolutely nothing on the battlefield, that would scare me - but another liberator xD


Come on... if it has to stay like it is right now, it should cost 600-750 nanites to make up for. Atm, its the most broken unit in the game, i d say.

Liberator and Valkyrie are freaking broken, in opposite ways.

Nonsense. I rarely play in a lib and the six or seven times I've been a dalton gunner I can land ESF hits at around 10% if they are at distance and moving, or if coming straight on it's about half to a quarter of the time: THe reality is also that the Dalton's damage isn't as much the problem as the fact it can fire as fast as a lightning AP cannon can- and does Vanguard AP damage. THis is the most powerful weapon in the game by almost any metric- and it is consistently preferred in an anti-air weapon when it is not supposed to be.

In addition, you act like using a Dalton taking more than one shot against an ESF/Valkyrie is "punishing high skill players". That is nonsense. The amount of skill it takes to land 1 shot with a Dalton is actually less than landing a zephyr shot fired slowly. It takes about the same amount of effort as lining up reliable hits with the Shredder- and none of those other weapons reliably kill other air targets. The Dalton is responsible for most of my A2A deaths in an ESF, only outdone by the stock nosegun simply due to saturation and prevalence- and I should point out, -I do not fear the noseguns. I do not see an enemy ESF, and say "Nope, can't fight that. No chance alone." Dalton lib? Definitely not tackling that solo. Dalton shots can be done with a reasonable success rate by basically anyone with more than five minutes of flying time- assuming the pilot in question here is providing steady flight patterns for you to fire from. Every ESF pilot I've spoken to has said "Do not engage a Liberator who has a Dalton without at least 2 other ESFs, and expect to take significant losses even when you do so." Note that they said this about 2/3 Liberators. Against 3/3 liberators, our squadron of four do not even bother unless we see they are running anything other than a dalton/buster combo. The second we see a shredder though, we tackle them with ease. Dalton? We're going to trade 2 or 3 of our ESFs even engaging in long range maneuvering and skirmish-style tactics- and that is just not worth it. I see Dalton liberators farming all the time- and nearby allied ESFs just look at them, see a dalton, and burn jets off to deal with something that isn't brokenly overpowered against them.

Dalton kills against ESFs/Valkyries are not difficult. They are reliable with only a basic measure of practice and skill, and with focused practice and experience, are bar none the best air-to air option- and frankly, air to ground option, all in one packadge.

One of the persistent frustrations I have with this dynamic, which I honestly had to sit back and crunch on for a few days before making this point (Because angry posting isn't as productive as people seem to think it is) is the knock-on effect that the Dalton OHK vs. ESF's have, which leads us to this post:

The reason that I included the ESF in this proposition is because the Dalton having OHK power has a knock-on effect to the air-game itself, which Alexeikruchev alluded to. Because of how powerful it is in the A2A role, it serves as a powerful deterrent vs. single or even paired ESFs engaging liberators. This makes them more likely to simply ignore it or evade it, which makes Galaxies, Valkyries, and ground vehicles more vulnerable to it, because the airspace can go undefended or uncontested. One of the most frustrating experiences you can have as a transport pilot is knowing that you have 3 ESFs in your area, but have none of them actually attempting to help you stay up by doing intercept duties,

Some of this happens due to selfish game play - ESFs feel they can earn more reliable points and get higher KDRs by doing A2G farming. But another aspect of it is rational preservation - they don't feel they can do anything about it, so why sacrifice themselves? Unless they're in your outfit or you know the pilot - and can rag them about it later - they aren't likely to pull and attack that liberator unless they've got a deathwish or two friends with tomcats, or you just so happened to randomly pull one of the top 5% of ESF pilots on your server.

This sources from the Liberators ability to one-shot ESFs. Because your average ESF pilot looks at that situation and uses a baseline notion of "It's Dalton, I can't scratch it" to make a choice that they can then easily rationalize, to not contest hostile liberators. This leads to transports going into situations in which they are being exposed to random high power threats with less off-setting air power to use in defense. Even trying to kite the Lib to friendly ESFs isn't a guarantee that they'll step up and do their jobs.

Yeah... but it's #17 on that list at 0.78% kills for NC and #21 for VS at 0.57%. TR isn't even on the list.
Being in a top 25 ESF killers list doesn't mean much considering how many weapons we have.
For example Vanguard AP cannon is above Dalton at #14 with 1.07% kills.

The top killer is still suicide at 35.94%. We should nerf trees instead because they're obviously broken OP.

I appreciate that I wrote about a complicated issue. And that some part of what I said may have either not been communicated properly, or not seemed supported by enough meat. I also appreciate that this is a topic that people on all sides feel passionately about.

Let me clarify.

I am not alarmed that the Lib is on the list of Top Killers of ESFs. In many ways, I would like to change the game so that Libs produced a *larger* % of ESF deaths. What bothers me is:
1) the vast number of players are unable to kill many ESFs with Libs at all, AND
2) a handful of players are doing a LOT of ESF killing

If *either* of those statements were not true, it would resolve my issue. If #1 alone were true, then the Lib would not function as an ESF killer and the game could adjust (and be balanced/changed) around that. If #2 alone was true, then Lib would simply be an all-access ESF Hunter, and the game could adjust (and be balanced/changed) around that. But... we instead have BOTH, and so we have a "disaster", because we end up with (1) a whole unit that is largely unplayable for the average player, and (2) that in the hands of a few players is shaping the meta.

This is the very heart of why PS2 FAILS as a general audience game: it is not adequately playable by the general audience.

Take a good look at the following chart aspiring Game Designers. It is a lesson on what *not* to do in a mass audience game.



You asked for better stats, even when Lib pilots already know the performance of anti-ESF Libs fits what I am saying. (and some have already said it). If you are a Lib player, do you need stats to prove what you already know? Or are asking for stats as some form of "hard evidence" that must be supplied in order for you to publicly (grudgingly) concede the state of the game?... why?

But you wanted stats. So, here you go...


Unit------------------------% of ESF Deaths-------Total ESF Kills
==========================================
M20 Mustang-------------3.92%----------------------56,498 ESFs
NC Skyguard--------------1.24%----------------------17,810 ESFs
Titan-150 AP--------------1.07%----------------------15,387 ESFs
NC C150 Dalton----------0.78%----------------------11,200 ESFs

What you see above are some of the Top Killers of ESFs. You can see the % of ESF deaths they each caused. I have stuck with all NC Units to make it easier for comparability.

Unit-----------------------Average Uniques
===========================
M20 Mustang-------------617 Spawns (with a kill/destroy)
NC Skyguard-------------388 Spawns (with a kill/destroy)
Titan-150 AP-------------1088 Spawns (with a kill/destroy)
NC C150 Dalton---------181 Spawns (with a kill/destroy)

The above shows the number of each that are spawned which resulted in at least ONE kill or Vehicle Destroyed (of any kind). You'll notice that the Dalton is not being Spawned nearly as much as the other Weapons. 150 AP is spawned 6 times more than Dalton, kyguard roughtly twice as much as the Dalton, and M20 well over 3 times as much as the Dalton.

They are all performing as Top ESK Killers... but they are not being spawned at equal numbers in the game. Much fewer Libs are accounting for their ESF Kills than the other units.

But what about Average Playtime for each of those Uniques?

Unit--------------------Average Playtime
===========================
M20 Mustang---------------408 hours
NC Skyguard-------------134.1 hours
Titan-150 AP----------------412 hours
NC C150 Dalton-----------55.3 hours

And what about Total Playtime?

Unit------------------------Total Playtime (Uniques x Average Playtime)
===========================
M20 Mustang-------------251,736 hours
NC Skyguard---------------52,031 hours
Titan-150 AP--------------448,256 hours
NC C150 Dalton-----------10,009 hours

And, what happens when we adjust the "% of ESF Deaths" to be proportional to "Total Playtime"?

Unit------------------------Amount of Time per ESF Kill
============================
M20 Mustang-------------4.5 hours
NC Skyguard--------------2.9 hours
Titan-150 AP--------------29 hours
NC C150 Dalton----------0.9 hours

(NOTE: if someone could check that I would appreciate it. I am prone to simple calc mistakes and would like to have correct calcs)

BUT... the above data for "Average Paytime" is unreliable. It does not properly account for either (1) Dalton players switching out of the Dalton seat during flight, nor (2) the time an M20 user spends with the M20 toggled to not be the active Weapon. Both of these would boost the Average Playtime and Total Playtime for both Dalton and M20. Same can be said for any 1/2 Vanguard where the driver switches to the Secondary. Plus, I don't like the disparity in Average Playtime between the different Lib seats.

So ultimately, I don't embrace the above stats with strong confidence for "Average Playtime", or the related stats of "Total Playtime" and "Amount of Time per ESF Kill".

Regardless, as I said at the beginning: fewer players killing a lot of ESFs.

As I have already said, I am not concerned about the raw number of Kill that Libs get. I am concerned about who is getting those kills. I want more Average Player to be accounting for Total Kills, and less Top Players accounting for Total Kills.

My issue is with Lib skill/learning to perform A2A, and also how that affects the Average Player being able to fly (and perform and survive) in a Lib. PS2 will shrivel if the Average Player cannot participate in (and contribute to) overall gameplay in a meaningful way.

As I have already said, I am not concerned about the raw number of Kills. I am concerned about who is getting those kills. I want more Average Player to be accounting for Total Kills, and less Top Players accounting for Total Kills. If it was only a kill rate problem, then we could simply buff/nerf Units until we got to a Kill Rate we wanted. But when you're facing a Kill Rate that is pegged to a handful of Top Players, trying to use vanilla buffs/nerfs just starts to mess directly with how playable the offending Unit is for the Average Player.

If Top ESF Players are accounting for most Lib Kills, then that is a problem. Especially when the ESF is a Unit where the skill/learning of the average ESF pilot is already *significantly* higher than the skill/learning of the average Player in using ESFs.

But if Average ESF Players are accounting for Lib Kills, that is less of a problem. It's still and issue, but one that can be more easily fixed with vanilla buffs/nerfs.

I am not alarmed that the Lib is on the list of Top Killers of ESFs. In many ways, I would like to change the game so that Libs produced a *larger* % of ESF deaths. What bothers me is:
1) the vast number of players are unable to kill many ESFs with Libs at all, AND
2) a handful of players are doing a LOT of ESF killing

If you read my post above this one, it will help explain my position I can appreciate this is a complicated issue, and that number can be complicated. Hopefully after some further reading you'll understand better what I am saying.

ESF is still faster and no one force him get near liberator, so when you shoot from distance its safe, when you move from side to side... Later you will learn about liberator weak point above and litl behind, from where you can destroy liberator and he can not attack you ( + you can copy move of liberator and stay in this place until you destroy it ) For less skilled pilots, Just attack liberator from TOP he can trun on you with belly for few second, but will slowly fall near ground so pilot have to turn it back and you will again find safe place, where liberator can not attacks you... ( I dont know how many experince in dogfighting OP have, but in 1 ESF vs 1 Liberator with both skilled pilots ESF will win 80%-20% + anti ground rockets are still best weapons vs liberator, so if ESFs will not fear 1 shoot death every noob will just fly 15m from liberator and land all rocket shots X2 +MG while reloading rockets and liberator is down. )

What will come next ? Nerf tank AP cannons, because they can one shoot ESF ?

Agreed in full. If ESFs are not given the ability to reliably defeat gunship/bombers, then they cannot be expected to serve as interceptors. ESFs only willingly engage targets that they are equivalent or superior to: Non AA ground vehicles, other ESFs, Valkyries, and under-manned Galaxies (Which they can both outmaneuver and outrun reliably, even in stock configurations. Whereas Liberators can keep up with and occassionally outrun ESFs in stock configuration assuming they pick racer and afterburners.)

This suggestion that the Liberator has a dead spot it cannot engage is nonsense. A Liberator is amply maneuverable to rotate it's belly in any direction it needs to in order to fire against enemies- nevermind how easy it is for the tailgun to get on target. Honestly, the only direction you would have a chance against a Liberator is to go nose-to-nose- but the Tankbuster is such an incredibly powerful A2A weapon in it's own right that no one even attempts this, nor should they, as the Tankbuster is almost as good against aircraft as the Dalton is. A Liberator is not significantly slower than ESFs- and I know on my ESF when I run hover/dogfighting, and Tomcat A2A/Coyotes, I cannot escape a Liberator who has afterburner and Racer- certainly not before he's gotten 3-4 clips of tankbuster off at me, and if I turn to dodge those- they tackle down and kill you with the Dalton.

Liberators are only slower and less maneuverable on paper- because their turreted weaponry means that it's maneuverability is a non-issue in the supermajority of engagements.

Again, I say this from experience -as- a Liberator gunner and pilot. I have never been unable to engage an enemy ESF one on one with anything less than one weapon system at a time- most times I can get two of my three systems going at once-.

The only time the Liberator struggles is against 3+ ESFs- one ESF distracts the pilot's guns, one distracts the belly/tailguns, and then, and ONLY then, can the third pilot maneuver to hit on the dorsal flank of the Lib- the one place it cannot fire. However, There is a further problem here: If you attack a liberator from above (As Liberators will almost always keep their dorsal surface on an upward orientation as they fall out of the sky eventually if they don't), then you will not be able to simply hover there- ESF's lose the ability to stay in hover mode while their nose is pitched down- and you will slide past the Liberator very quickly- and get instagibbed by the DAlton or Tankbuster.

And if you are hovering and keeping distance at long enough range this isn't an issue- your ability to maneuver versus the Liberator's roll rate is vastly inferior: He will get his belly gun and tail gun on you- or his nose, depending on his preference- and he will win that fight most of the time.

I think you're missing the point. THe reason the Vanguard kills ESFs is because of bad ESF pilots- they have the ability to make it impossible for a Vanguard to shoot them- high angle of attack runs maintaining altitude.

The reason trees kill so many ESFs, is because of bad piloting yet again- it is impossible for a tree to kill an ESF if an ESF does not itself fly into them. (Primarily due to the fact of training pilots often practice low flying till they get good enough to do it in combat as an evasive tactic.)

The reason the Dalton kills so many ESFs is because ESFs cannot do anything to escape it's field of fire while still engaging the Liberator. Other explanations are posted elsewhere on this thread.

Beyond all of this- whether or not Vanguard AP shells should be killing ESFs is a discussion for another thread, as this thread is discussing the fact that the Dalton, an A2G anti-tank gun, is also the top A2A weapon avaliable to an airframe that already HAS dedicated A2A weaponry: Tailguns like th eWalker and Hyena. If your AV weapon is out doing your AI at AI, you need to either nerf the AV weapon or buff the AI. IF your AV weapon is outdoing your AA weapon, then you need to either nerf the AV weapon, or buff the AA weapon. I don't think any of us honestly think the single Walker or Hyena is OP- as these weapons are known within the player meta to be directly inferior to Dalton fire- both by Liberator pilots and gunners, and by ESF pilots.

Not at all. ESFs are at a significant disadvantage to liberators, one for one, and even two to one. It's more or less similar to taking a flash without cloak and basilisks and trying to take on a Vanguard with a Prowler's rate of fire. You'll get a similar experience and comparable time to kills. These perspectives are not at all removed from the reality of live play- it is in fact BECAUSE of live play reality that these perspectives even exist- I was stunned into disbelief that the dedicated AT weapon of the Liberator was so vastly superior against aircraft than both of it's dedicated A2A weapons that I did not believe it until I experienced it repeatedly myself. I even learned to fly ESFs passably well just to formulate an informed opinion- and clocked dozens more hours as a Liberator gunner.

I will take a Dalton -alone- over everything else the Liberator gets, over every other A2A weapon in the game on any platform or airframe. If I could have a Skyguard with a Dalton on top of it, that could only point upwards in the same arc as the Dalton on the Lib could point down, I would never touch a Skyguard again, and rake in the certs.