Shotguns and Elitists, Part III

Fear me, I live!

Okay, back to business. With part II dead at this point, I think it's about time I brought this series back to life, and this time, we approach from a new angle.

So, as my quest for the purple medals continues, I continually look for new and interesting weapons to araxium. I've played this game for a very long time, and most weapon types I am at least "Experienced" in, such as AR's or carbines. But, as I played my TR character, I realized that in my extensive use of shotguns, I had never really made a serious effort to use Slug ammo.

So, I spent some glorious Saturday playing PS2 for 7 hours straight and managed to araxium the stock shotgun with slugs. And as I played, the main issue of Slug ammo, being it's excessively massive CoF while moving, really began to rear it's ugly head(Shell?).

Having araxiumed a wide variety of weapons, or at the very least, gotten enough combined kills from different categories of the same weapon to equal an araxium, I like to think that I can say with some certainty which weapons are superior to others. While granted, much of a users performance can be determined by playstyle(Some players may not have as much success with a CQC BASR at 20 meters then they might have with a CQC Carbine), some general guidelines can be drawn.

And I must say, Slugs are awful.

Let's take a moment to remember that my personal accuracy stats are actually extremely high, so the issue here isn't that I can't aim. The real problem is that shotguns have a moving CoF of .9, and testing in-game suggests that slug ammo increases this CoF even further.

As a point of reference, the Orion has a moving CoF of .4; The Solstice has a moving CoF of .25, even smaller. This means that at anything but point blank, being consistently accurate is going to be a major *** pain. You can try and stand still while firing, but in a 1v1 against a competent player, that is a death sentence.


But this isn't even the main point of the thread.

As I araxiumed slug ammo, I had several players rage in yell chat over my use of shotguns. And yet, even when I pointed out that I was actually using slug ammo, it didn't make a difference. Somehow, in their asinine world, a shotgun was a shotgun, regardless of the ammo type being used.

So that leads me to ask, what the flying ****?

If one of the issues that people have with shotguns is how they are easy to aim, and that only noobs use them, how do you have the audacity to complain about slug ammo?

For ***** sake, I had someone, a BR100, complain when I used PA Slugs. Which by the way, has been the most frustrating, painful, least rewarding experience I've had in PS2, ever.

Yet again, the elitists continue to contradict themselves in order to justify their hatred. Make up your ******* mind, if shotguns are cheap because they are easy to aim, then Slug ammo should be the exact opposite, because slugs are not easy to aim at all. In fact, half the time, you don't even decide where they go, you can guide the shells in one particular direction, but in the end the massive CoF will determine whether or not you secure a hit.









P.S.

In my last thread, I realize that I made a comment that causes it to appear that I consider specific groups as a whole to be these "Elitists". I very dearly apologize for that, and I want to clarify that I respect those players highly, thought I may not agree with them in some cases. That was a typo on my part, and it didn't even have anything to do with my main topic, rather it was about my own personal performance against these groups. Once again, I apologize.

"And I must say, Slugs are awful."

Yet about everyone says Slugs are godly when on a MAX, even though MAX shotguns have double the bloom, no ADS, and a COF of 1 at its smallest.
(just had to get in my MAX agenda again)


It is just a flat hate for shotguns as a whole. Any game, any platform, anywhere on the map. Shotguns are going to get hate from it being a weapon type that is impossible to balance without either ruining itself or something else.

Not only in gaming. Shotguns in real life have been feared and hated, while also loved, from them being so damned powerful for about anything. Some say that a Rifle or Pistol won the west, but it was the Shotgun that kept it safe.

We get it, dude. Shotguns are underpowered, you're MLG as **** for being able to get a single kill with them, ever, and anyone that denounces the use of shotguns is just some 9 year old raging kid that needs to l2p.

We ******* get it. Stop making this thread.

I have nothing much to contribute, I just want to say that I really miss the days when Vanu shotguns had no drop on slugs. They were beautiful weapons then. Now they lob projectiles like softballs.

That's because "everyone" is a group of dumb people who don't know what they are talking about. They get killed once by an NC MAX with slugs and scream see? SEE? They are OP!

Actually there are millions of games where they are balanced, otherwise sniper rifles can't be balanced either.
Sniper rifles trade in fire rate and CQC fighting capability (in most games) for long-range and high-damage per bullet coupled with the possibility of a OHK headshot.
Shotguns trade in fire rate and long-range fighting capability for CQC supremacy, and seeing that most games have very, very low TTK's (Laughably PS2 is considered a "High TTK" game) that barely matters. In fact, in PS2 the TTK's barely matter, unless you get that OHK which is based on extreme skill and short distance which is a wonderful compensation for the ease-of-use at CQC to medium range that almost every single other weapon has.

Shotguns are basically large-caliber sniper rifles but designed with shorter ranges in mind, considering one can blow a leg off in close quarters it's no surprise that they are feared. I believe that one country even tried to have shotguns outlawed at one point. Despite that shotguns can easily be balanced because of the trade off:
Carbines, LMG's, AR's, SMG's etc: CQC to mid-range, some long-range capabilities.
Sniper rifles: Mid to long-range capabilities
Shotguns: Short range capabilities (despite them being well capable of doing longer ranges in real life, especially with slug ammo).

People don't like getting killed. Especially not what they perceive to be 'cheap'
Shotguns are in that 'cheap' category

The problem with shotguns, is that its really hard to balance out properly. You either end up with it being ridiculously overpowered, or its complete garbage like most current shotguns.

Germany I believe tried to outlaw the use of shotguns back in WW1. Can't blame them. Shotguns are extremely dangerous in close quarters combat and that's pretty much trench warfare

Correct me if im wrong

But yeah. Shotguns just have a negative rep because they are considered 'cheap'

Just like

NC Max
Rocket Primary(im on an open mind about this one)
SMG infiltrators(this one I have no idea why)
Snipers

But honestly, either ignore them or just tell them to go try shotguns if they are so 'cheap'

They are not cheap, they are not hard to balance. You trade in something for some more power somewhere else. The current iteration of shotguns barely has any advantage in CQC compared to SMG's, Carbines and even some LMG's. You need extreme CQC to benefit, which requires tons of skill and situational awareness to get close. You can do the exact same things with Carbines or other weapons and secure kills from longer ranges than shotguns. And aside from PA's, which have massive drawbacks in their rate of fire, every shotgun needs headshots for that magical OHK, however you need to be so close and have RNG dictate that enough pellets hit to guarantee it because you have to be picture-perfect with your shot to hit, otherwise your enemy, who'll just be spraying and praying on that range, will easily maul you to death.
The only real advantage shotguns have is their damage per magazine. It's a short-ranged pocket LMG. Sure you have a theoretical DPS that's immense, but due to the high damage falloff and pellet spread you'll more often have lower DPS than damned pistols than any other weapon if you don't use it properly.

Key word: Considered. Just because people consider something cheap does not mean it is. All they see is the death screen if they get killed, they fail to see all the shotgun users they kill before it got close enough to do more than tickle occasionally. They also assume that a shotgun with a pellet spread equals less aim required and less skill to kill. They are dead wrong. The shotguns in PS2 at the very least need picture-perfect aim within it's effective range. Outside of that range who the hell cares about that tickle weapon? If you aim even slightly off-center, yes off center rather than "in the general area of your opponent", you'll be missing easily half your pellets, dropping your DPS potential even in CQC below that of any Carbine and losing yourself that battle. Shotguns in PS2 require more aim and more skill to get close, your only advantage, if you manage to do it, is that you can kill 3+ people with one magazine, assuming they don't notice your obnoxiously loud shots in time to gun you down anyway.

One more thing: Shotguns force you out of cover. Carbines, LMG's, SMG's etc can be used as pop-up weapons. You see someone, even if they are outside of your effective range, you can fire and damage them. I've used CQC carbines to kill people at range, or used long-range weapons to kill people in CQC, simply by using cover and exposing the least amount of my body. Shotguns can't do that, they are only effective inside their effective range. You want to kill someone? You have to go get them. Avoid area's where people often look, get close and then get behind your enemies cover. You don't have cover when using a shotgun, making you even more of a target than any other weapon in the game.

Which carries shotguns.
Which is only used in CQC scenario's while the VS and TR MAX often appear outside as well.

Because the rocket primary has a much longer range and is usable from behind cover.

By a select few people maybe, I rarely ever heard it.

Because... It's effective at ranges someone else's weapon isn't! People hate that! Even though they can do the exact same to the sniper by getting up close.

Yes exactly, shotguns aren't cheap. Shotguns are not used a lot anyway, only the defaults see some action. Rule number 1 of gaming: If something is OP and/or cheap, people will use it en-mass. If shotguns were truly effective this would be shotgun-side. We actually have proof of this: When infiltrators could wield shotguns, shotgun usage was much, much higher. Because an infiltrator with a shotgun was effective as hell.
So why then don't we meet a shotgun user in every single attack? I can go 3 bases before seeing any shotgun user at all, mostly because you don't notice the one's you gun down before they have an effective range on you, but also because much less people use them.

I just started using slug shotties - anything for novelty, me. My reactions are:

• devastating if they hit (350-500 dmg depending on range.......from Iridar 51s shotgun guide)
• Only likely to hit if you are a) in someone's face or b) standing still and ADS at close range
• highly unpredictable - I've killed with two shots at a range that says you should not be able to hit someone....and missed with both shots at pointblank.

Whislt I rather like this quirky, loud weapon I find I only achieve anything with it that I can't do better with a CQC carbine in dense, room toy room fights (y'know, the ones where a 'nade or C4 or Max is going to get you even if no one else does).

So, devastating but hard to hit with and limited to close range seems to be a balance.

But elements of randomness aren't a good design choice.

Why should I be punished because a random algorithm for CoF decided I would miss?

if thats what you think he is saying, then clearly you dont 'get it'.
I suggest giving it another read, without taking your prejudice with you this time.

I applaud your effort, but I'm afraid it's in vain. He is in fact, the exact kind of player I've addressed in these threads, and the unfortunate truth is that few of the very players I speak to will actually listen.

I mean, case and point, they say shotguns are cheese because they are easy to aim, but then they say that slugs are cheese as well, which is harder to aim then a BR. There is no logic, only emotion.

In fact, just the other day, I met a player who claimed that PA slugs were powerful without having ever used them. You can't honestly expect to be taken seriously, when you won't even get 100 kills with a PA slug, and yet you call them OP.

O i know its in vain, but like you im a sucker for punishment .

My bro uses shotguns almost exclusively, he simply enjoys up close in your face fights.
The amount of hate he gets is unbelievable LOL. He, like me, also couldnt care less for directives or other achievements, so naturaly his directive score is low, this exasperates the hate, which is glorious .

I shotgun a lot, but I don't get that many rage tells.

The only one that I can think off right now was when I saw an enemy from a tower. I could have easily gunned him down with a Carbine from my position before he would have time to retaliate, but I had a shotgun so I was forced to fly down and get spotted. I shoot him in the back, he tells me I'm a shotgun noob... And can't accept the explanation that I could have gunned him down sooner and safer with just about any other weapon than a shotgun.

Yeah, I take your point. It's a bit like betting on a single number in Roulette in the hope of a big win, or spreading your bet for a better changce of a smaller win. Personally I'd like slugs to be more predictable but I can taste the salt that will be sprinkled on them already. A smller moving cone of fire would do for me atm, though I am still a newb with slug shotties.

He must get 4-5 hate tells a session, most just go unresponded. I say its a lot, maybe it isnt, but compared to me its a lot. I must be doing something wrong lol.

Occasionaly he gets a well played tell.
What gets him the most hate is running in a door, instantly turning and running out, then turning and running in again. Noobs are so eager for kills they try to chase out the door and get splatted before they even know what happened. Its an age old trick but somehow it creates rage when you get duped by it.
I have to say its mostly the lower ranks that moan in tells, higher ranks moan in a general way in the Yells, like when i say 'Great fight TR' and the response i get is, 'Yes if it wasnt for you shotgun noobs' of something along those lines.
Its all good banter and all makes for fun imo. Im not a sadist tho, but i do like it when people cry over shotguns, its funny.

So... Your entire premise with these threads is not to show people they are wrong and stop the hate tells, but to antagonize them and get your fun out of it? You are only making things worse, and it's not fun. Why else make these threads and remove your own fun when using shotguns? We are at number 3 now, and you know that the people who aren't convinced won't ever be convinced, just as much as irrefutable evidence that we've been wrong will probably not convince you either.

Sums up shotgun gameplay pretty well.

This is why I pretty much gave up on completing shotgun directive. I think I'll have to wait until shotguns get buffed/reworked before I can bring myself to play with them more.

And then comes a guy who has 20k kills on CARV and calls you a ****ter despite you using a weapon that's 10 times worse.

Slugs increase CoF by 75%, it's been datamined, along with effects of other attachments.

Objectively, it's crazy bad. You can somewhat limit this frustration if you accept to engage only enemies within ~20m, which is still much further away than what buckshot can do.

But yeah, total bleh-tier.

So basically, the moving CoF for a slug shotgun is 1.5

For the love of all that is dakka and spandex and bonus checks, what was SOE smoking when they decided that.

All shotguns should have access to Smart Choke, this includes the Jackhammer.

In all the time ive played ive only had a few direct comments about my shotgun from salty players

Ive joined a few open anti shotgun conversations but mostly just to act like an idiot while making a point of the downsides to the things