[Vehicle] Magrider

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ohknoh, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Gundem


    Normally I don't resort to "L2P", but this is one of those rare issues.

    I want you to look at the Vanguards stats, look at all the points I've made, look at all the thousands of paragraphs of posting and thousands of hours of experience and research, and tell me, how is the Vanguard an inferior tank to the Magrider?

    The fact of the matter is that it simply isn't. But people who use it, tend to play too aggressively. They put themselves into situations where even their shield can't save them and they go down easily. They don't rely on flanking or stealth, something the Magrider is forced to in order to overcome it's weaknesses.
  2. Dethonlegs

    Gundem is right, a vanguard should win every time at close range against a magrider if it has a shield and AP. Just charge forward and pop the shield when needed. If the van has a good gunner then I'd extend that to mid range as well. If this is not your experience then it is a L2P issue.
  3. Moz

    Prowler > Maggy > Vanguard

    Its that simple!

    Up until the GK hit:

    Maggy > Prowler > Vanguard

    Poor old Vanguard hasn't been OP since pre shield nerf!

    BUFF VANGUARD!! \o/

    PLUS.... The Maggy looks awesome!
  4. Vaphell

    Wouldn't that mean the spreadsheets don't tell the whole story and synergy between the numbers changes things?

    top velocity in a straight line that almost never happens in real play doesn't matter. Overal agility and maneuverability do. The vanguard is a clumsy brick. Better TTK in VR doesn't necessarily translate to the real TTK in real play, eg evading just one shot of the cannon on a 4s cooldown changes the whole math dramatically.

    The longer the range, the more it can't. As the mag's evasion stat goes up, the vanguard eats up the damage the same, but what the magrider eats falls through the floor.

    you speak of stealth and flanking, while mentioning the advantages of side armor in the previous paragraph? How is that suited for stealth?

    A beefed up magrider you say? What about its bottom of the barrel traction that makes it unable to traverse most medium-to-difficult obstacles and prone to sliding, rotating wildly exposing the *** in difficult terrain?
    What about the fact that the Vanguard simply lacks the easy mode secondary that can be utilized efficiently on the move even by average players? No matter how you slice it, secondaries are a big chunk of the DPS and play a huge role in the DPS race. Paced out, pixel accurate saron shots are as easy to land on a vanguard as it can realistically get (ignoring the insanity called the GK for a moment), while things don't look so pretty in the opposite direction.
    At long range where the magrider can evade ALL shots relatively easily, it is pretty much capable of coming out on top carried by the saron alone.
  5. Gundem

    It does, or at least it used to. Long ago a couple Magrider mains did a highly in-depth investigation of the stats to find out why the Vanguard scored lower(Since after using it, they concurred that it was a superior tank), and basically, to make a long story short, we found out that Magriders were more likely to have competent AV secondary gunners, and Vanguards were far more likely to be 1/2, and they also had the greatest quantity of Basilisk gunners, which indicates usage of an uncerted vehicle. Which all makes sense, most VS understand that a 1/2 Magrider is free certs to pretty much anything(Even an AP lightning can kick your ***), so we are forced to run 2/2. But, this offers such a drastic advantage over a 1/2 Prowler or Vanguard that it allows a skilled Mag pilot to demolish most unorganized zergs, which is what usually happens when combined with our usual habit of flanking, which was also indicated in the stats by the longer lifespan of the average Magrider, while having nearly the same VKPH(Take a long flank, kill a lot of armor in a short period of time vs. running head long in, taking out a few guys and getting decimated in a 4v1). The greater Basilisk usage also makes sense, since the Vanguard tank with the greatest viability 1/2 for 1v1 head on fights, a lot of the time they don't even bother getting a gunner, or they rely on the Titan-150 AP and don't bother certing out a secondary.

    Apparently, since then, things have changed, and this is no longer the case. Which is a mystery to me, since the only thing that's happened so far is the other two tanks got buffed even further with the homogenized main cannon velocity and the new ES Secondaries, as most Vanguard guys who actually use the Boombox correctly will tell you that it's actually a pretty terrifying weapon.



    I'll make this short. The Vanguard is physically incapable of missing a Magrider inside 300 meters due to the velocity of the 150 AP and the acceleration characteristics of the Magrider. Don't believe me? Look it up.


    And the longer range the Magrider is at, the more likely it will be to miss due to our slow as balls velocity and massively steep drop. And with the Saron's CoF bloom, your DPS is going to be pretty abysmal with it as well.



    Mainly, that was just demonstrating just how much stronger a Vanguard can be then a Magrider. I'd still be using Stealth, but only because I know how to use armor correctly.




    I also meant this in more of a spiritual sense, flanking and stealth, not about the movement characteristics of each vehicle.

    Realistically, the only continent that you should have major trouble flanking on, is Hossin. Even on Amerish I can flank with my Vanguard/Prowler fine, the only advantage the Magrider has in flanking is that most of the time, it takes slightly shorter to flank. In nearly 100% of cases, the Vanguard and Prowler can flank the same targets, the only difference being that you might need to look a little further for a path your tank can make it through.

    Don't think that I ever downplay secondary use. I know very well the value of a good gunner. But the Saron is by no means an "Easy mode" secondary. At long range, it still has pretty poor velocity, and it also has that massive CoF bloom that cuts it's DPS from mediocre to downright pathetic. At medium range, the Enforcer can still deal great damage, and at close range it hits like a truck, as well as having high sustained DPS, which invalidates any of of the Magrider's strafe as well. At long range, the Titan AP is going to deal more damage then the Saron can even dream of, and since the FPC is **** at long range we once again come to an impasse.
  6. MasterOhh

    What was the range again, were a magrider can evade shots, that were aimed at its center under perfect conditions (no lag etc)?
    And what are you doing with your Vanguard in a long range duell? Sitting in the open with no cover nearby, trying to duke it out in the wild west style? What is keeping you from taking cover and repair your tank when you drop below 50% health? It surly can't be the 6 second god mode you have.
    Is that crazy dodging Magrider overwhelming you with its sheer DPS? I mean the Saron is a real damage beast with the 0.5s COF reset time after each shot. And not to forget the main gun. Landing shots with the 275 m/s gun of the vanny seems to be impossible, but somehow a muzzle velocity of 225m/s makes it a lot easier (while evading all incomming fire)?

    It might be hard to WIN against a good Mag pilot. I give you that. BUT not winning doesn't equate with LOOSING. Every good tanker should know when it is better to break off a fight. And in a long range duell, you have all the time to make that decision.
  7. Slandebande

    With the amount of power Vaphell attributes to the GK, I would hate to see his reaction when he actually comes up against a good crew using actually effective weapons (like the Halberd) :D

    He then also writes about long-range engagements, typically about ranges where no semi-competent tanker should lose his tank, let alone a competent one. Of course, it doesn't really seem like he has any experience in a Prowler or Magrider either.

    He is complaining about Prowlers being effective at ranges upwards of 500+m. No tanks are effective at anything but shooting stationary targets at such ranges. Enough said. He hasn't spent any noticable time in a Prowler either.
  8. Vaphell

    I don't believe you and it's on you to present your case. "Look it up" is a non-argument. Just so you get it: "The magrider evades 126% of shots at 300m, true story. Look it up".

    I already disagreed today with somebody who claimed that magrider is 20m wide (!) and it takes 1.8s to strafe half its width from 300m or some other nonsense. You don't even have to calc things for me, just give me the solid numbers for width, accel, top strafing speed.

    Also do you take into the consideration the fact that 300m is over 1 second and you have to hit ideally the horizontal axis to not miss on the sides due to a small vertical offset?
    Mag's profile looks like this: <mag>
    Whole corners of the bounding box don't belong to the hitbox and you can miss despite putting the shot well within its span. That reduces the "effective width" of the magrider.


    Care to compare all that to the titan that misses a lot too, because it has to continuously solve a 2dimensional problem (drop + prediction of horizontal movement), not to mention the enforcer hurling bricks? Who gives a **** that you pace your shots to half the theoretical RoF when enforcer misses probably 90% of them by default, maximum RoF or not?

    It is an easy mode secondary at long range compared to the enforcer. First of all, the vanguard is going to be mostly stationary because shooting on the move is a losing proposition due to the brutal accuracy drop. Even start/stop sways your whole chassis, aim included while the magrider's vision is rock solid almost always. Firing the main? Sways the whole chassis, magrider's vision is rock solid. Being mostly stationary plays right into the saron's hand.
    Muzzle velocity is the same between the saron and the enforcer so all things being equal being freed of drop guesstimation, especially as significant as the enforcer experiences is a huge deal. You probably pace your saron shots already because of a relatively small pixel count of the target on your screen.

    Yeah, no **** the enforcer hits like a truck at close range (though I doubt the magdumping saron is that far behind), too bad it becomes hilariously ineffective at long range in all but the most skilled hands, while the saron stays decent. Only a 50% dps drop at long range? Where do I sign up?
  9. Savadrin

    I mostly like magriders because 1) I can wedge my harasser underneath them and my gunner makes them explode, and 2) if they pick the wrong direction to turn when I sneak up behind them with a Vulcan, they die before they can fix the problem. Cannot do that against a Granny.

    That said, I hate magriders because they are exceedingly difficult to escape from when played aggressively, and their magburn can apparently keep up with my Turbo through terrain.
  10. MasterOhh

    I am sorry for you. If hitting a Mag from 300m away is such a huge problem for you, fighting more agile, faster and smaller targets like harrassers must be an absolute horror.

    Again, if you and your gunner miss to many shots in a long range duell (from my experience most vanny and prowler drivers can at least match my damage output) you still have the option to disengage. Even with a perfect mag crew who lands every single shot, you'll have 15 seconds minimum to reach some cover. And 15 sec are an eternity in a fight.

    And speaking of cover. Did you know that you can go hull down with your vanny if you find the right piece of rock or hill? Exposing only a fraction of your tank to incomming fire. Or if you can't go hull down, you can at least find some partial cover, protecting allmost half of your tank.

    So personal shooting skills aside. The only way a magrider can kill a vanny in a long range duell is, when it catches you in the open with absolutely no cover nearby. But then, a prowler can do the same, only much quicker. Hurling AP shells in your direction at a rate I can only dream of.

    You find it frustrating to fight Magrider over a long range? Try setting up a perfect ambush on a vanny and then have completely nullified by the simple push of the F- button. Prowlers will at least do me the favor to go up in flames when I took the time to sneak up behind them.
  11. Vaphell

    They are a pain, but they tend to be really aggressive and get closer and they don't strafe horizontally at random. If you think it's so easy to nail an erratic mag at 300m, show me o great one how you do it. I am claiming that shooting magriders at that distance is pure guesswork and I am still waiting for someone to prove me wrong with solid math, showing how lousy they are at strafing and it's all in my head.

    Too bad that long range duels don't matter. Try couple tanks vs couple tanks at the very least which is why the engagement range is what it is given that nobody is eager to overextend trying to reduce it. 5 enemies smelling blood and focusing fire and suddenly instead of 15s we are talking 3 seconds of life expectancy.

    Everybody has an option to disengage. I'd argue that magburn is better at the job that reversing at glacial pace and facetanking scores of damage in the process.

    Do you know that you can stick out only a secondary and not expose any part of the hitbox, which is/was extensively exploited by let's say GK harassers? On an MBT it means half the dmg output but zero downtime in repairs, not too shabby. The best thing about is that magriders can do it too and the saron is an AV semi-auto sniper rifle that is perfectly capable of hitting pixels of the hull-down vanguards' turret.

    Let me try: try setting up a perfect ambush on a mag and then have it completely nullified by the simple push of the F button (magburning away behind cover or over a hill). Clumsy vanguard is unable to escape the ambush so it can only get out of the hole in 2 ways: by winning or in a coffin.

    If you didn't open in the back armor then it wasn't a perfect ambush, and if you did the shield is not going to help them. Most likely they will hit it reflexively asap, so wait it out behind a piece of cover and then descend upon their ***** to collect free certs.
    I won't deny that vanguards are a bit tougher nut to crack, but if you know what you are doing, the initial double damage opening and forcing their hand to waste shield is just too much of an advantage to squander. They are **** out of luck unless they have buddies right next to them to shield them and retaliate.
  12. Jake the Dog

    Aaaaannnnnndddd after reading half the garbage in this thread Ive given up on teaching forumsiders mbt tips.
    gl guys please get the devs to buff one of my tanks unnecessarily. Either way I win I guess.
  13. ElricVIII


    You realize that even if they did listen to your advice it would mean nothing in the actual game, right? People on the forums are a small minority of the playerbase. In large-scale games, outside of clan/outfit/alliance/etc operations, balance is dictated by the mass of average and below-average players; players who, by necessity, make up the largest portion of a playerbase.

    So while I'm doing just fine in my magrider, using positioning and spacing to my advantage, the ease-of-use that the other MBTs have over the magrider allows the TR and NC average players to beat out the VS average players.
  14. Jake the Dog

    Lets hope for a mag buff then. Lets improve its CQC, give it a nice gimmick to destroy the other mbts that'll be great lol
  15. ElricVIII


    Buffing it isn't the answer, normalizing it is. Asymmetrical balance is a nice concept, but it breaks down when the balance requires greater system mastery from one party. There's a reason NC is the best faction for server smash, yet does poorly in daily play. NC guns are only balanced with VS/TR weapons in the hands of skilled players. If the power ceiling of all the weapons are balanced, the easier to use weapons will have better overall performance in a population of players with varying degrees of skill.

    It doesn't matter how well I learn to use the magrider, since there's no way that I will be able to meaningfully affect the outcome of a combat with 10+ tanks on a side if my other 9 teammates are average schmucks that just park their magriders and slug it out head-on with another faction.
  16. Jake the Dog

    The three factions are what define this game, asking the devs to create another battlefield would be heinous no matter how much easier it is to balance. The moment they take away the faction uniqueness is the moment i leave ps2 for good.

    If those 9 schmucks all die in their mags you better hope they learned something is my suggestion. This is a game where a single engagement can be VERY fleeting. The mag might require a finer touch than the other tanks, but once you get the hang of the strafe mechanic its childsplay.

    When I started my VS character I was a seasoned NC and TR tanker with an ARX prowler and semi ARX'd vanguard, I was under the impression it was a garbage tank, so I played it. I took some tips from another mag pilot. I took those tips and ran with them and right now its probably my favorite tank to play. It took me roughly a week or two to get the hang of the mag. Sure you can play the vanguard and if both players have 0 experience with minimal certs vanguard will win. Two pilots of equal SKILL and not skillless schmucks doing battle will be fair.

    Thats also the reason I gave people advice on tanks, I wanted to raise the bar of tankers I was fighting. Its hard enough to find solid tankers you can duel and trust me a duel between expert tankers is an intense affair and comes down to monopolizing on the smallest mistakes. Ive also written short guides to take you from a crappy tanker to a decent one (i cant make you a great one thats up to you). The feedback i get is usually "sidestrafe cant dodge tank rounds" or "vanguard has Iwin shield no fair". Meanwhile i dodge tank rounds from people i come across all the time 200m+ ranges especially. In any case Im not interfering in peoples discussions on mbts anymore go ahead call it an iwin shield lol.
  17. ElricVIII


    You're not wrong. I have even made decent progress with your advice, personally. However there is a real concern about gameplay experience being tied to the performance of your team. The reality is that many players aren't that far off the 0 experience level. It's certainly a nice thing to hope that players will learn and grow from their mistakes, but many do not play games for that purpose; people often play games to have an activity that allows them to shut off their brains. So forcing me to suffer because of the high probability that my team will not want to learn (and will instead whine about OP this and that) isn't a great way to retain players at the higher end.
  18. TheRunDown

    I hate seeing vehicle stats on paper..
    People don't seem to understand, most of TR Vehicle kills come from killing unmanned static vehicles, empty sunderer or on coming zergs..
    It does not in any way show the performance of manned vehicle vs manned vehicle.. A Prowler is considerably weaker as a front line MBT, seeing a MAG with Saron+AP can insta kill a Prowler, and a Vanguard can shield up in a DPS race..

    The Mag is far the better vehicle for farming in, it's harder to hit and preforms the biggest bs in game, such as climbing mountains and gaining access to none vehicle areas.

    If you could take only the stats of every player with a KDR over 2.5, those Vehicles stats would be A LOT different.
  19. MasterOhh

    The only way a Magrider can instagib a Prowler is, when it was working its way around the Prowler to hit it from behind. And that can only happen if you and your team are tunnel vision farming whats in front of you. Your tank has a turret, its takes you a second to have a quick glance behind you. As a Magrider pilot I have to rely on my gunner if I don't want to turn my whole tank to check my rear.

    And since when is the Prowler a bad front line tank? Hurling a big amount of ammunition towards your enemy while driving the fastest chassis isn't that bad. Ofc, if most of your team is anchored down on some hill 200m away from a base to farm infantry, it is hard to find some support for a push.

    On one point I have to agree with you. Looking on the stats on only gives you half of the truth. Do you know why SOE buffed the Prowlers anti tank abilities back in 2013? Because they looked at their stats and saw, that the prowler was loosing more than 60% mbt vs mbt fights. But they ignored the fact that it had allready the most kills of all mbts back then, because Prowlers were mostly 1/2 HE to farm spawn points. And yes those 1/2 HE Prowlers got ganked by 2/2 Magriders and even a vanny (which was realy bad at the time, b/c the shield was bugged) could b.i.t.c.h slap them.
  20. Jake the Dog

    However, VS remains a very popular faction, it offers unique approaches and unconventional tactics. I don't mind it being a harder faction to grasp the concept on and I personally always liked playing the UP factions or underpopped ones. VS may take some more skill but its very rewarding to the people who know how to monopolize. Also good to hear someones paying attention lol. Unlike...
    Where on Earth did you get the whole Saron+AP mag instakills a prowler?!? .7(~1900+~1700)= 2520 and thats only on rear armor... Also turn down your music, if you're attentive you can hear MBTs from REALLY far away.

    But, I don't expect you to know that. Being a loyalist in this game, can imho seriously hurt your understanding of how to defeat AND how EASY it is to defeat the other factions when capitalizing on your factions ability. But if you're stuck in the mindset that you can't beat a saron+FPC mag in a AP+vulcan prowler theres nothing I can do for you, it comes down to learning to play the game.




    I told myself I wouldn't give out advice and here I am...
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