Oh yea, it's that time of the day... Magrider threads!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gundem, Oct 23, 2015.

  1. Gundem

    So, I'm just gonna go ahead and copy what we've been discussing in the GK thread, as truthfully it really does belong in it's own thread,


    Sure, there are some ways the Magrider is different, but not better, because these differences come with disadvantages themselves, so they pretty much counteract themselves. Like the pseudo-stablized turret, which comes with the being forced to turn your entire tank to turn your main gun and worse situational awareness, and lower mag aiming arc.

    While I don't think the Magrider is stupidly bad, I think it's roll is misplaced. It is trying to be an MBT and a Harasser at the same time, and it ends up just being mediocre at both rolls. If we changed the Magrider to be more mobile, more agile, and more fragile, then I think we could make something really amazing out of a cool concept that's just executed poorly. The current magrider claims to be a long ranged tank, but it also has the worse weapons for long range engagements. It tries to be a stealth assassin tank, but it's also the largest and most audibly recognizable. It says you should strafe do dodge attacks, but the strafe doesn't help dodging shells and makes it harder for the Magrider to form a collum of tanks, and causes us to constantly TK our allies.

    Individually, these issues are somewhat insignificant, but they all combine together to make a very confused, fat harasser tank that really can't compete in either roll very well when compared to just using the available counterpart. I really, really want the Magrider to shine in her own way, without even nerfing the Vanguard or Prowler, as they really don't need it. I just think that if we changed up they way the Magrider funtioned, to suit it's strengths rather then try and cover it's vehicle type's weaknesses, but doesn't do a good job of it anyway.


    So, thoughts? Any other VS that agree? Any TR or NC that wouldn't want a Mag-harasser? Any wizards want to show your ******* faces to me already? I know you're in there!
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  2. CMDante

    Magrider strafing is ********. We all know mobility is more important in this game than durability. Being able to casually strafe around trees to break lockons, or just charge into a horde of people and waggle around before boosting away is a massive edge that no one else gets.
    The biggest problem with the tank isn't its mobility though, it's the fact that it's so simple to use. A magrider is in effect a bigger, tougher MAX, which is just bigger, tougher infantry. There's no learning curve and it doesn't demand the same level of attention that any other tank does. This means that even a brand-new driver can devote their full attention to waggling and keeping on target. The lowest DPS cannon doesn't mean a whole lot when a magrider can -so- easily pick and chose what, when and where it engages someone.
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  3. AxiomInsanity87

    How would you want it changed to fit a role better?.

    I getting off fourmside now so replies will take some time.
  4. LodeTria

    I'd give it a ZoE.
    No not the max one, a better one.
    It would actually increase the damage of both gunner & secondary, and increase strafe speed more.
  5. Nedloh

    I main VS and play in both a lighting and a 2/2 Magrider quite often. I think all the tanks are in a decent spot at the moment. If you compare the tanks attributes directly to each other it will seem like the Magrider needs tweaking.

    However I always do so well in a Magrider due to the way it plays that I don't think it should be changed to augment any one specific area. Its mobility really is a great advantage that is only realizable when piloting one. I can think of many situations where I would have survived for a shorter amount of time or gotten less kills if I did not have the mobility of the Magrider with Magburn.

    I have not logged many hours at all in the other MBTs. I know I would do well with them as well if I certed them up and played to their strengths just as I do with the Magrider.

    The only big discrepancy that I see is that the other tanks are much better 1/2 than the Magrider. The Magrider is horrible as a 1/2 tank (hence why I use my AP lighting so much). I can imagine that if I played a Prowler the way I play my lighting that it would work great. Same for the Vanguard but not as much due to its slow fire rate. MBTs are two person vehicles though and I don't think that they should be re-balanced around their (1/2) performance.

    Making the Magrider more mobile and more fragile without reducing its damage output or weapons ranges would make it preform too well in my opinion. The tanks are fine where they are, they do not need changing.
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  6. gartho33

    careful... you may end up landing your mag in PPA's play box...

    If this was to be a thing, that mobility would need a hard check as that is the SOUL thing that wound your current ZOE where it is now.
  7. Chal

    A 1 on 1 fight between a vanguard and mag would seem to disprove that statement and stafing has even less value these days with the high velocity guns on tanks/harassers.

    What good is gained from charging in and waggling around? sounds like a good way to get maybe 1-2 roadkills (it's so unreliable on enemy targets) then get either a rocket to the back or c4'd. I do try that when I see a juicy hill full of squishies but it is rarely worth doing and is normally a one way trip since you expose the back of your tank for so long.

    :confused:
    The mag might be easy to move around in but are new drivers really flummoxed by prowler or vanguard controls which are pretty standard for gaming tanks? The Mag lacks a strength in combat for new drivers like a situation where it has the clear advantage over the others without needed an outplay. The prowler can rely on damage the vanguard on its shield to win fights. For the Mag you need experience to know how to use the terrain to gain the most out of its mobility.
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  8. Gundem


    More mobility to start. Primarily in the form of better acceleration for it's strafe. Without it, all another tank has to do is aim center mass and they can't miss. Secondly, I'd want an Omniburner to replace the current Magburner, or perhaps significantly improve the current Magburner and then add a new ability for all the tanks. The ability to boost to the left or right to dodge a shell would be a significant advantage in any fight. As an added bonus, it might work out to improve the Magrider's front armor while reducing it's side armor, thus rewarding enemies who attack the magrider from angles rather then head on. But that, I would say, would be the last on the list of changes. I few QoL changes like improving the max aim angle for the main gun, velocity buffs for it's various weapons, and making the PPA not **** would also be greatly appreciated.
  9. ColonelChingles

    Before we buff/nerf anything, we should probably ask ourselves if the Magrider really needs to be adjusted. So let's look at performance stats.

    HEAT, KPH, VKPH
    Prowler- 20.77, 5.96
    Vanguard- 17.07, 5.61
    Magrider- 16.21, 5.41

    So with HEAT, the Magrider is performing a little lower than expected. But naturally the Prowler is king.

    AP, VKPH
    Prowler- 12.03
    Magrider- 11.36
    Vanguard- 10.53

    In the case of AV work, the Magrider actually outpaces the Vanguard. So when discussing tank v tank warfare, the Vanguard is the one who might need buffs, not the Magrider.

    HE, KPH
    Prowler- 44.2
    Magrider- 43.22
    Vanguard- 34.86

    With respect to HE, the Magrider is actually fairly close to the Prowler. Probably because while the Prowler has DPS, the Magrider has the ability to climb cliffs and shell infantry. The Vanguard is far, far behind the other two MBTs here.

    So really the only thing that the Magrider might need buffs on is HEAT lethality. But to say that the Magrider needs buffs against other vehicles is only legitimate if the Vanguard gets even more AV buffs. And certainly the Magrider needs no help in AI work, being almost equal to the Prowler.
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  10. AxiomInsanity87


    The vector thrusters (sideways afterburner name that sounds cooler i reckon) sound great, really good. What you suggest sounds really good provided it's done right.

    I Don't see why this can't be put on the test server and tweaked. PPA just needs a cof reduction but not to the point of how it used to be i think.

    I would love the saron to become a death beam with intermittent damage as well. Why the VS have no pulse lasers is beyond me.
  11. Gundem


    Would have really rather the Aphelion have been that laser. The problem now is that if the Saron was changed to be a laser beam, the VS would have two close range weapons and no long range options at all.

    At the current stage though, I'd want the Saron to get a buff in the range department with lower drop off, better velocity, better accuracy and perhaps even a magazine size buff and damage reduction, and then have the Aphelion tweaked in the CqC department, just to better define the intended roll of each weapon.
  12. Gundem



    Remember, I already explained that. The Vanguard is just barely ahead of the Vanguard in VKPH, but Magriders use the AV secondaries way more often and survive significantly longer. Long life span and increased AV usage should mean that the Magrider, assuming the system was balanced, should outperform the Vanguard significantly in VKPH, but it only just barely pulls ahead.

    http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=uniques&weapon1=3442&weapon2=3704&weapon3=802874

    Proof. Look at the stats before the Gatekeeper was introduced.

    http://ps2oraclestats.com/?stat=uniques&weapon1=3402&weapon2=3704&weapon3=3702

    it also shows that NC MBT's are also more likely to be using a Basilisk, which generally means the tanker intends to go 1/2.

    If anything, the Prowler just needs it's AV adjusted. The Lockdown AP prowler is absurd. The Vanguard could use some changes to make it less of a one-hit wonder that kills a few tanks with it's shield and heavy armor and then dies, as that seems to be about how most average Vanguard's play.

    A long time ago it was suggested that the Vanguard's ability was changed to a resist shield. Or as I suggested, the Magburner gets buffed, VS get the Omniburner, NC get a Resist shield, and then perhaps the TR get some sort of Overdrive Engine. More content for tanks, while bringing the balance full circle. Good Vanguards who want to flank can still use the shield as an oh-**** button, but Vanguards who want to play as a tank line would benefitfrom the resist shield without being stupid for other tanks to engage from the rear, which was the VS's biggest problem with the pre-nerf Vanguard shield. It was impossible for even a 2/2 AV Magrider to break the shield from behind, which meant 10 seconds of free damage for the Vanguard. And I'm sure the TR would appreciate something that played to the Vulcan's strengths, and didn't mean camping tank hoards from 500 meters all day.
  13. ColonelChingles

    That's not true for two reasons.

    First, if Magrider 2/2 usage was really a significant factor, then Magrider primary VKPH should be less, not more. This is because the secondary weapon would "steal" primary weapon kills, on account of the secondary weapon having a greater RoF and increased chance of landing the lethal blow.

    Second, Magrider 2/2 usage isn't actually that much greater than Vanguard 2/2 usage, especially before the introduction of the latest generation of ESAV weapons.

    Here's how 2/2 usage data actually looks:
    April 2014- Magrider 25.6%, Vanguard 18.9%
    September 2015- Magrider 59.0%, Vanguard 49.0%
    October 2015- Magrider 35.3% (195.26/553.1), Vanguard 28.8% (178.22/617.9)

    So the range of difference is only 6.5-10%, and that's even taking into account September where Vanguard 2/2 usage was at a relative low because the Mjolnir was highly unpopular. We see that after all the hype fades from MBT secondaries, usage rates even become more similar.
  14. Gundem


    If we consider all MBT AV cannons, then the Vanguard actually has a combined of roughly 10KPU, where the Magrider sits at around 7KPU. Then, remembering that the Vanguard still uses the AV secondaries less often, we can see that the Vanguard is significantly superior in AV.

    Note that I really just eyeballed that number, but it seemed that the score always roughly added up to 10 and 7 respectively. If you want to go through the stats and make absolutely sure, then I would be glad to see that I'm actually wrong. But that's to damn much math for me to endure myself :(

    Also note that this thread is entirely about the AV performance of the Magrider vs other vehicles. If you want to argue about AI, you can make a separate thread, but I know that the tanks have very different AI stories. But tanks are bad at AI anyway, unless you are a Prowler, so honestly I'm not all that concerned.
  15. Kumaro

    Well put :)
    Thus i shall add my own little part to this
    The problem with Statistics is that they only tells us part of the history.
    If we could get common players habits from each faction alongside those statistics i would take them more to heart then now.
    Since something that greatly decides if a weapon or vehicle is considered OP or UP is also how the wielding faction uses that weapon or vehicle. For example if we changed the play style a bit you could probably see the vanguard rise in stats noticeably.

    For example from personal experience playing this game.
    The Prowler Is mainly used against infantry since it's overall design is a medium tank(heck when reading the description it even says medium). And thus it's only good at one thing. And that is support which makes it an excellent infantry killer overall. AKA the Prowler as far as i know from playing it all this time will mostly be used in moments when there is lots of other troops nearby. And it is capable of tagging along thanks to it's versatility regardless of turret choice. Of all the tanks this is the easiest one to use.

    The Vanguard however is a brawler. It can take a hit and deal one hell of a punch itself. But is really slow and cumbersome.
    And the shield mostly will only aid it situations where speed would have done similarly. And once used the tank is mostly doomed.
    Thus people will tend to pull this tank when having the chance to deal with vehicles stopping allied pushes since it excels in killing those vehicles at any distance. But beyond that it wont add much to the battles as it is too slow and lacks greatly in adaptability unlike the prowler. This tank is great for those with patience and experience enough to know when to retreat.

    The Magrider is the most interesting of the 3 tanks because it has a fixed turret which limits it's ability to react to changing situations. However with it's strafing it's great at flanking or duelling against other tanks at a distance.
    With different controls and handling then traditional tanks it's learning curve is a bit steeper but it's potential is also the greater.
    This tank is the best at utilizing situations and excels in flanking attacks. Thus you will often see it flanking enemies and rarely moves alone. This tank also tends to have gunner more often then other tanks which gives it a considerable advantage as the top turrets easily can compete with the main gun.

    One thing i have noticed that has kept the Magrider up as an annoying tank is that those players tend to be good at using it and rarely ever leaves without a gunner to support them.
    I mean seriously how often do you see TR or NC gunners compared to VS??
    The moment you see more gunners on the TR and NC side the Magrider will lose in stats quickly.
    And as i remember it from before hiatus VS tended to have the most high ranking skilled players while suffering from a lower pop.

    When it comes to tank buffs wonder why they didn't follow trough on the reverse speed being equal to the forward speed. Honestly the tanks need that. Like really need it, also this is supposed to be the future not a re-skinned WW2 game.
    But to give the tanks a bit more love i would make the Prowler 5 kmph faster in total top speed with better acceleration that is closer to the lightning.
    The vanguard should get improved armour i like it tanky even when i face it.
    Magrider needs it's booster to go in all directions honestly and wider first person view.
    you have to take into account that the Vanguard and Magrider become quite impressive once you have fixed the chassis.

    But then again what i want back for the tanks is those glorious old open fields where we could wreak havoc on everything in sight and a tank push couldn't be held back by infantry at every place on the map. A how i hate bottlenecks with a passion strong enough to make extremists jealous. And yes i "used" to be a Tank driver in this game. Back in the days when tank combat was a thing!!
  16. Flag

    What to do? What about dialling back the very things that make the current magrider insufficient, which is the higher and higher velocities of weapons that fight against the Magrider?
  17. FBVanu

    And there it is. Since the new secondaries came out, I find myself pulling back the Magrider far more often than before...
    The Maggy was in a great spot, didn't need anything to compete, if played properly..
    but now, ugh, it's lower health is an issue.. Don't get me wrong, my repair points are UP, thx for the extra XP and all.. but that's now what I'm playing for.

    From the Prowler point of view, I LOVE the new secondary.. always find a gunner.. and Magriders are easy pickings now..

    Flag got the gist.. dial down the new secondary velocities.. and or lower their damage output.. The Maggy can bob and weave, zig and zag and is generally hard to hit.. but a Gatekeeper on a Prowler can turn it into mince meat in no time, no matter how much you strafe side to side..
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  18. Dethonlegs

    What the statistics don't tell you is something that anyone with a lot of time in an Magrider knows. Right now you cannot 1v1 an equally skilled MBT and have a chance of winning without some type of advantange at the outset (terrain/flank/etc). Also, if a Magrider is flanked then it's auto loose unless there is a hail mary object to burn over. The same is not true with the other MBT's.

    Before the Vulcan was buffed you could frontal charge a Prowler and win so long as you got the first shot and it wasn't in lockdown. Doing that now is suicide.

    The MBT game is NOT balanced as far as the Magrider is concerned. Here are my suggested changes:
    • Raise the Magrider main gun velocity so it's on par with the other MBT's. (leave damage as is)
    • Raise the Magrider main gun maximum elevation so it's on par with the other MBT's.
    AND
    • Increase the Mag's strafe acceleration so that dodging actually works closer in than the current one hex away.
    OR
    • Add another second to Magburn's duration. Forget omniburm - it's suicide waiting to happen.
    OR
    • Halve Magburn cooldown duration.
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  19. LodeTria


    But the meow meow is already the slowest by 50m/s and the weakest.
  20. NinjaKirby

    Saw your Thread Title, made this chart (Yeah, your thread Title is all it took for me to be inspired).

    I'm not around Forumside enough lately to know the real regime, so I just looked over the last few forum pages and cast my mind back on what I can recall off hand.

    (Sorry this isn't really on topic... :p)

    [IMG]
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