MR11 Gatekeeper

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Acestar, Sep 10, 2015.

  1. Flag

    Nothing deserves a ZOE-esque nerf.
    • Up x 2
  2. Moridin6

    harasser, fully up armored
  3. RainbowDash9

    Sure the gatekeeper can hit stuff really far away, but good luck trying to consistently hit the target at said range without them running away and repairing. this is another of those "go try it yourself to realize its not as OP as you think" times.
    • Up x 2
  4. Stormsinger






    That is not what I am saying at all. The Saron is only barely better at ranges where pump action shotguns OHK, the gatekeeper is better at ranges where galaxies stop rendering reliably, around 700 meters, and only barely inferior at point blank.

    Lets see:
    The gatekeeper has 500m/s projectiles, compared to the next highest of 300, it has no recoil, no drop (due to velocity) out to maximum possible render range, and over 6000 damage per magazine as compared to approximately 1700 for the Saron. (6 potential infantry kills for the gatekeeper, 1 for the Saron, allowing for a miss or two.) It has no bloom to contend with, and extremely minimal CoF. Leading any ground vehicle (save for a harasser) at 500+ meters is simple due to velocity. Add in a maximum magazine size cert option and a significantly superior stock reload speed compared to a maximum-certed Saron. (Which has no magazine size cert option.) Also, there's the fact that the Prowler version has 10 more rounds simply by default, which scales it up in potency very significantly, compared to the Magrider / Vanguard ES AV T1 options, neither of which have any such option.

    What's the problem, you ask?

    The current best ES secondary in the game by a huge margin is also on the best MBT in the game by a less, but not insignificant margin. Fractures are still broke, Strikers still suck. You can't balance the overall performance of an empire when most of it's options are still borked into nonfunctionality. That's the problem - it's not fair to the TR, not to mention anyone else.

    Just like the VS said when they got the prenerf PPA, and the NC got the pre-buff canister?
    Just like the TR said when the Striker was at it's most potent?
    Just like the NC are still saying about Ravens? (Which, by the way, are more balanced compared to the next several weapons in terms of current VKPH stats then the Gatekeeper is only after a week post release.)

    What's the problem? We have seen what happens when toys are left OP for extended period of time, I want the Gatekeeper to avoid the same fate as the PPA, which is currently less useful then headlights would be for infiltrators.

    [IMG]


    I love the Gatekeeper, I adore the Aphelion, and i've been having fun with the Mjolnir, despite it's shortcomings. I do, however, want them to be balanced, and after about 30 hours with the Gatekeeper, 20 with the Aphelion, and about 15 with the Mjolnir, picking the most unbalanced one is a trivial task.
    • Up x 1
  5. Scr1nRusher


    Do you have racer chassis?
  6. Moridin6

    i switch back an forth havent really decided on using it yet, turbo is maxed out though, but thats not really my point. people keep defending the gk's abilities by saying its not good at close quarters. what im talking about is having an enemy harasser right next to mine with the gk, my gunner using amp, pulsing, and i still had to hop out and repair and we Barely survived. this has happened repeatedly, seemingly making the statements about it sucking up close false
  7. Scr1nRusher


    Racer is better.

    Also the gatekeeper takes forever to kill you.
    • Up x 1
  8. Moridin6

    live results say otherwise.. ttk feels Very much equal with the amp, so using "but it sucks up close" to defend its incredibly cheapness at, well, any range is not going to fly. it needs a nerf, though not a crazy one. ttk at all ranges regardless of the gunners skill is ridiculous . unless youre point blank or the enemy is standing still the gk smashes the sauron, which its supposed to be on par with if i understand the intentions correctly
  9. Scr1nRusher

    What the **** are you even saying at this point?


    It gets beat by the other ES AV weapons in CQC.

    The Gatekeeper IS on Par with the Saron & Enforcer.

    Also the TTK over longer ranges with the gatekeeper is nullified........ by MOVING AROUND.

    You need a good gunner with good accuracy & experience with the weapon to do well over range with it.(this goes for any secondary weapon really)
    • Up x 3
  10. SwornJupiter

    Why are you comparing this with a ES secondary PISTOL!?!?!
    ttk was already shown to be pretty equal across the board, and I think a reasonable velocity nerf was already suggested actually.
  11. CMDante

    Let's keep hyperbole to a minimum, for the sake of our readers.

    You say it's the best ES AV weapon in the game right now? Maybe, but it's situational and lacks any kind of burst damage. If a GK starts shooting you, you have a very long time indeed to withdraw and look for cover/repair. It simply doesn't do the kind of damage needed to instagib anything.
    You say the damage per mag is excessive? Fine, I'll grant that it is high, but that is a TR trait. The problem, if there is one, is that it doesn't have a lengthy reload to offset that as I mentioned before.

    The Prowler version of the GK is only the fifth best performing AV weapon, the Saron is fourth. The Harasser version WAS way, way off base. But the VKPH and VKPU have all equalized over the last few days as the new weapon craze has died out.

    I don't see a problem with the weapon's velocity, it's inferior to not one but two weapons the VS have available to them. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the Lancer or the Comets, why is it so game-breaking for the GK?
    The drop doesn't pose a huge issue either, so what it's easy to hit with? We have lock-on launchers and wire-guided munitions that are even -easier- to hit with, and only one of those is a problem.

    The GK only works because it's a collection of really, really nice perks on a weapon that would be completely pointless otherwise. Are there some balances that could be done? Sure; reload speed comes to mind, perhaps base magazine size could be downgraded. But anything else and it will become just like its predecessor, a waste of certs and a direct downgrade to pretty much every other AV weapon in the game.
  12. CMDante

    Reloads aren't(shouldn't) factored into TTK, as it's impossible to know if it will come up. A Saron has enough burst DPS to surprise a smoking vehicle and remove it before the pilot can react. In this case reload speed means exactly nothing.
  13. Flag

    That statement requires the target to be past half dead, hardly makes for any fair comparison between anything whatsoever.
    • Up x 1
  14. CMDante

    The point is that reloading won't always be a factor, so it's largely too big a variable to base DPS on. Especially considering no one does it for infantry weapons, so it seems out of place. The only time you account for reloads is with one-shot weapons, when it basically becomes it's RoF.
  15. Stormsinger


    I indulge in hyperbole rarely, it felt appropriate in this case, to demonstrate my point.


    The main issue is that it's damage is relentless, and it has no mitigating factors to prevent players from sitting on full auto with no diminishing accuracy - this is exactly how the PPA performed prenerf, and it was one of the main problems with the weapon. With no need for trigger discipline, focusing fire is simple, and it eliminates the need to choose your targets carefully. Anything you can see, you can fire at and hit very consistently - with a complete lack of CoF / Recoil / bloom, ground-based targets at any range, traveling at any speed (save for perhaps harassers) cannot escape until they have left line of sight.

    When under fire by a gatekeeper at ~500+ meters range, projectiles don't render, and frequently, neither does the harasser. The Gatekeeper is not the only weapon that does this - the Saron / Lancer do as well. The Saron is limited by projectile velocity and CoF bloom, so even slight movement is sufficient to escape fire for a few moments. The Gatekeeper's projectile velocity makes it simple to track moving targets regardless of evasion attempts, save for successfully breaking line of sight versus an unspottable target. This is a major reason why the AV Mana turret was nerfed - projectiles are laser guided, so they could strike you anywhere that isn't significant, physical cover, regardless of distance.

    And accuracy at extreme range is a Vanu trait, but limited accuracy is the way it's implemented. The Lancer and Vortex are limited by charge time and bloom, the Saron is limited by extreme bloom and recoil, the Gatekeeper is limited by none of these.

    I have much less of an issue with the Harasser version of the Gatekeeper, provided a longer reload is implemented. Limiting magazine size for the prowler (Or buffing it for the Enforcer and Saron) Would be fair, and regardless, I would like to see the Saron / Enforcer gain a magazine size cert option - limiting this to a single faction's weapon (one that already has the highest magazine size) makes balancing things significantly more difficult.

    The Prowler AND Harasser's gatekeeper is the 2nd best performing ES AV secondary by VKPH, and the 1st best AI secondary of any type.

    The following stats are as of 5:50 PM CST 9/11/15, it appears as though the Gatekeeper is versatile enough to hold both the AI title and the 2nd place title on both of it's available iterations.

    Prowler:
    [IMG]

    Harasser:
    [IMG]




    The Lancer and the Vortex (Comets are slow, Vortex is the MAX AV with the charge mechanic) are not on vehicles. Escaping a heavy assault or a max is much simpler then it is a Harasser chasing you at 110kph, and a harasser / prowler are both much more difficult to kill then a max or a heavy. This is why the original version of the Saron (single shot, extreme velocity with a charge mechanic) was nerfed out of existence after only a very short time - extreme velocity on vehicle mounted weapons makes things proportionally overpowered to a greater degree then it does for infantry weapons - I would have much less of a problem with Fractures having relatively high velocity, it can't catch your sunderer like a Gatekeeper harasser can.

    Wire guided munitions are by their very nature extremely potent, the AV mana turret was nerfed into having a hard range limit, not to mention that (last I checked) they auto spot themselves when deployed and manned - they are limited quite hard these days, and that's for a stationary turret that can't go anywhere with a squishy infantry unit manning it. Just browsing through the forums will show how hated Ravens are - I personally don't mind them nearly as much as most seem to - the max that wields it can't chase you down, it can only keep you from approaching, and we now have Archers to deal with that.

    The Gatekeeper lacks any drawbacks, the list of which i've stated a number of times now, so I won't repeat that yet again so soon. It is important that the Gatekeeper remain as viable as the competition, if it were up to me, I would start with the following adjustments.

    Adjust the Prowler magazine size to match the Harasser, 20 for both.

    Lower the velocity from 500 to 400, it's still faster then any other ES options by 100m/s, the goal is to not allow it to be nearly hitsan tracking versus vehicles at any range, moving and panicced gunning of engines should give you breathing room, forcing the gunner to compensate and re-adjust his leading.

    Give the Gatekeeper slight drop (assuming the velocity adjustment doesnt do that all on it's own) - I would like to see the gunner have to re-adjust for things moving at at an angle relative to the Gatekeeper, currently, I haven't had to on anything short of a reaver corkscrewing with afterburners on in a wild attempt to escape. Perhaps hold off on this part until the velocity adjustment is in place - don't apply any extra drop if the velocity changes accomplish the goal.

    Give the Gatekeeper EITHER slight vertical recoil, similar to the Saron, which only has a few pixels worth of vertical recoil per shot. Forcing the gunner to pay attention and re-align after a bit of sustained fire works fine for the Saron, and you barely notice it prior to 250 meters, so this only really applies to firing at targets fairly far downrange.

    OR

    A very small amount of bloom, equal to perhaps 1/6 to 1/12 that of the Saron (Proportionally less bloom compared to the Saron, by a significant degree, to account for the lack of rapid burst fire) . Firing in bursts to maintain accuracy is a good balancing tactic when done in moderation, doing so to the degree that the Saron / Duster have just makes for a useless gun, which is to be avoided. (I like the idea of the bloom being not even visually noticable until 6 rounds, and it starts causing misses at 200 meters by 8 rounds. Releasing the trigger for half a second resets it.)

    Adjust Reload speed to 2.5 seconds default, 2 seconds fully upgraded.

    Keep damage as is.

    Net change is 100m/s lower velocity, Prowler magazine size equal to harasser magazine size, either small amount of bloom or a small amount of recoil, increase reload time by .75 seconds. The velocity is still faster then anything else, and the reload is still faster then the Saron, damage remains the same.


    Additonally, certing reload time for the Enforcer is of almost no benefit with the new reload mechanic it has, perhaps replace the reload speed cert option with a magazine size cert option, or just add the option for those that like reload. (It helps the least of any ES secondary reload-speed option as it stands)

    Add a cert option to the Saron for additional magazine size, maxing it out at 8 shots, with +1 size per rank. If necessary, lower maximum RPM slightly to account for close-range potency boost.

    Thoughts?
    • Up x 1
  16. CMDante

    Yeah, you're rather verbose.

    But seriously. First of all, your charts aren't sorted. the vehicle kills per use only slightly favor the GK in those, likewise for overall kills and KPU. The margins are too small to really declare it over-performing, in my opinion.

    Secondly; I agree completely that we need to be able to see the rockets. I suggested in another thread to make them like the Fracture or Striker rockets in appearance.

    Your proposed ideas do make some sense, but I think we should all remember what happened last time DBG did more than one thing at a time.
    I agree completely on the reload, it's too short for how much ammo it has as is.I could see very minor physical recoil.
    I think magazine size should stay the same for both, a large drop in DPM would really unbalance it if there was a longer reload as well.
    I think if we had felt recoil the high velocity wouldn't be as much of an issue, I'd like to see that added before dropping the velocity. Bloom I think would gut the intended purpose of the weapon(It -is- a long-range sustained damage weapon after all).
    No drop either, we already have Pounders and Fractures to embarrass us at long range, we don't need to add a third way to do that.
    • Up x 1
  17. Stormsinger


    Yep, it's a habit from college - caffeine has something to do with it as well.

    They are sorted by VKPH - I posted some earlier in this thread that are sorted by kills. They are number two overall for VKPH, just behind the Mjolnir. The Vehicle kills are only half the equation here, the Gatekeeper is excellent against infantry as well - I'll repost the kills-chart here for convenience.

    Harasser:

    [IMG]

    Prowler:

    [IMG]

    An Anti Vehicle weapon should not be number one for Infantry kills. Yes, this counts for the Saron as well, which held the previous record. AI weapons should be viable, and the VS's is not. (That's a topic for another day, however - I'd prefer the Saron perform less well vs infantry in exchange for the PPA being viable again. Pick AV or AI, right now - both the Saron and the Gatekeeper can do both, and the Gatekeeper does it much better on a platform that's already the absolute best at it already (tank primaries))



    Part of the issue, is that if the entity firing the weapon hasn't rendered, that means it's projectiles won't either (in many cases, at least - I still see phantom rockets appearing from non-rendering AV turrets.)

    This is frequently why you'll get no-audio dalton or shredder impacts - the Liberator hasn't rendered, and neither has it's projectiles. Current (non-gatekeeper) ES secondaries haven't been fast enough for this to be a severe problem until now, which we're only seeing due to the tremendous projectile velocity of the Gatekeeper. If the non-rendering projectiles could be somehow fixed in a reliable manner, I would have less of a problem with it, but given that they haven't managed to fix it for the Liberator in 3 years, i'm not sure that's a viable option, hence my velocity adjustment suggestions.

    Unfortunately, I am intimately familiar with SOE style nerfing - it's been the same since Everquest. Normally, i'm a proponent of nerfing ONE thing at a time, and seeing how things turn out. In this particular case, the gatekeeper has so many potent attributes that no one else has... well, I suggested a few more this time. I am all for doing a small staggered approach to making adjustments, however - do things in small increments, and wait a week between each - see how things turn out before going further.


    For magazine size, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point - I believe that they should either be the same (balance them against one another - with one having a higher magazine size, it makes this extremely difficult, as the prowler version will always be significantly more potent.) - Either this, or grant a small proportional buff to MBT Enforcer / Saron, and rebalance them as necessary for the new size. At least this way, the same style of balance can be applied to each weapon proportionally to that of the Gatekeeper's versions.




    Potentially, but for one faction to have extreme velocity for vehicle mounted weapons, this blasts the AI potential through the roof (As we can see in the charts I posted above) - If necessary, subtract the 100m/s velocity from the Gatekeeper, and dump it into the Fracture. The TR should NOT be balanced around a single unit, which it currently is. (The Prowler, and harassers to a degree - but they only really pick on the outskirts of Armor zergs, they can't go head to head, as prowlers can. ) - Most of the TR's potency is focused exclusively on this unit, and the Fracture / Striker cannot be significantly buffed further until the Prowler's overall potency is addressed. Without a tech plant, the TR is just a paper tiger... with a tech plant, they destroy things handily. I want the TR to have a versatile arsenal, as the VS / NC does - with the Prowler performing as well as it currently is, this can't happen.

    Edit for an additional thought:
    No one should have a no-drop weapon except for the Vanu without associated drawbacks. (Much of the VS's arsenal has slower projectile velocity, and no-drop is useless within 150 meters, which is exactly where the vast majority of weapons are used. The VS pays a heavy, nearly universal price for the three weapons it's viable on - the Saron, the Vortex, and the Lancer.)

    I have no problem with it only having slight drop, however - starting to see a bit of dropoff at 350-400 meters seems acceptable to me, and seeing greater dropoff at ~500 meters (The Lancer hits max damage reduction here) seems reasonable, to prevent extreme amounts of sniping outside render range, which is the greatest cause of no-audio, no-render projectiles.)
    • Up x 1
  18. Flag

    It matters on vehicles because the TTK is effectively so much higher than in infantry combat.

    I mean, let's compare the TTK of a prowler (not the back) with my mag to an infantry TTK.
    Let's say some infantry dies in half a second to an Orion or MSW-R or Cyclone. Each of those weapons are capable of killing faster but let's go with a round number. Then, because repeated reloads, once the mag fires the 3rd shot, and the Saron starts the 3rd cycle (I forget the exact numbers but for the sake of the argument let's assume it at least survives this), it's been ~7 seconds. Or if you want to round it out and let the Saron fire a bit to secure a kill you're left with a TTK of roughly 8 seconds. That's 20 times the TTK compared to infantry.

    Point is, while it doesn't really matter as much for infantry, it does for vehicles. If the target was a Sunderer or Vanguard the TTK is even higher, making the Saron reload factor in even more.

    So you can't just ignore reload values for guns when it encompasses a majority of the firing cycle over time because in this and that situation one burst was enough. Most of the time that burst is insufficient.
    • Up x 1
  19. PostalDude


  20. FBVanu

    So, eh, you are used to winning all the time then? You say you "easily owned" the enemy tank.
    Well, now you feel the other end of that stick. Fun, isn't it?
    • Up x 2