[Vehicle] HOW is the vanguard statistically the worst MBT

I think a major part of the problem is that I only rarely see NC using vehicle stealth and flank tactics with AP Vanguards. They kind of suck in packs in the classical line battle but in straight up tank fights using 2/2 AP tanks, the one who gets the jump wins 90% of the time unless someone spazzes and misses shots. People assume with the heavy armor and shield, they are line tanks, when they are actually amongst the weakest at that: they don't have the death dealing ability of a prowler or the ability to dodge dumbfires of a magrider, meaning in line battles they are at a disadvantage. They do have a very high alpha strike ability however, using the shield to absorb the first hit counter shot after putting a Titan AP round point blank into the rear armor of a target while whomever is on your Enforcer is spraying them. You technically can pull two AP shots before you start taking damage, which is immensely powerful. On a rear armor hit with the main gun + 1 shot to die armor alone you've just stripped 2/3 of the health off a target.

But most tankers on NC are not set up for this; they are set up for line battles. If you watch the complaints about the shield, it is almost universally from people who say they are dead before they can really fight back, and that only happens in a 1v1 ambush.

I would say it takes practice however. Practice extensively in each of the tanks make the points you just said, almost completely non-existent. Learning to shoot and move in all of the MBTs is a skill all tankers should learn ASAP. Try practicing in VR, do drive bys on various targets at different ranges. Sure the mags gun has no recoil, but it also has s*** velocity and drops like the baseballs I threw when I was ten.

Right now though, I hear the vans got a real sh***y close range top gun though, so the balance is going to be a little screwy. The only new ES weapon I've gotten my hands on recently is the gatekeeper, because I've been playing too much starmade...

Ever watch the TG vs BWC(? I think it was them) tank matches? I'll give you a hint, the prowlers didn't win.

One thing I'm curious about, does the NC still hold the top spot in every Lightning weapon except the Skyguard?

Back during the push for the shield nerf, people were trying to use the same argument of "Vanguard is best tank in the game and hugely OP, it only trails in stats because all NC are bad." But the NC during that time dominated the top of the Lightning scoreboards. Which brought up the obvious question, "If NC suck at tanking, why do they beat everyone when you put them in an NS tank?"

Or perhaps put another way, "If NC are so bad that they can put the best tank in the game into last place, does that mean the NC lightning is secretly even more OP than the Vanguard?"

Of course the shield still got nerfed anyway.

We aren't supposed to bring up the NS weapons, it kind of blows up the whole "NC are just bad" point of view.

Though to answer your question all 3 factions are pretty much in spitting distance of one another with various lighting weapons which is usually the case with the NS weapons.

No idea. The Vanguard is, in my opinion, far and away the best MBT in the game. Mostly due to it's low profile and shield. Every 45 seconds you get a 1v1 win.

The longer reload time nullifies the prowler ROF in any type of CQC because you just dance in and out of cover, exposing yourself only when the reload is complete.

Throw a halberd or enforcer on that thing and it's game over in any close - mid range engagement.

Don't get me started on Magrider mountain climbing with the Aphelion...

Yeah yeah, the prowler is a bit better at range...but it's immobile...and absolutely massive...so there's that.

This.

Good Vanguard drivers absolutely dominate Prowlers in most situations outside of 300m plus. The good ones are very accurate even at mid to long ranges. At close range there is no comparison. Maybe if I start off anchored, get the drop, and have a Vulcan at CQC range, I'll have a chance....but even then it will be damn close, and that happens very, very rarely.

Vanguard main AP cannon + enforcer + shield = dead prowler.

Magriders I can't comment on versus Vanguards, other than that they are slippery as hell and could make them miss, giving them an edge.

Viper KPH
TR- 25
NC- 24.96
VS- 24.88

HE KPH
TR- 50.41
NC- 46.48
VS- 45.79

AP VKPH
TR- 13.45
NC- 13.41
VS- 13.41

Skyguard AKPH
NC- 6.15
VS- 6.14
TR- 5.92

So actually the only weapon that the NC have the lead with is the Skyguard. The TR are the best Lightning players, though the NC are always second. The VS tend to do the worst with the Lightning.

Those numbers basically are saying the empires are equal they are so close, stats wise first, second, third doesn't even matter at that point difference, with the exception of the TR having a noticeable, though still small, lead with the HE.

Pretty much. In fact, I'm rather amazed that the VS and NC have the exact same VKPH on AP cannon, down to two decimals!

The idea that one faction is just "skillless" is fairly unfounded. The DA stats site is down, but it used to have global accuracy stats and the NC weren't missing more shots than their TR and VS counterparts.

So if given equal equipment the factions perform equally... but if given unequal equipment the factions perform unequally...

No I don't, do you have something to disprove my point about what the OVERALL STATS AVAILABLE tell us about the NC's performance?

No?

You may want to, because frankly citing two exceptions don't make anything I said wrong - it's still an objective fact that the NC has the smallest number of overall kills, the highest deaths and the highest team-kills, and that is what I claimed. The OP cited the Vanguard as the least-scoring tank, this falls in line with the 'least skilled player-base' clause I cited. If this offends you, deal with it, then prove me wrong.

Assuming for a second that your numbers are accurate, I imagine the reason the Prowler is not having it's lock-down nerfed... and I can't believe someone is actually asking for that... is because A) you are rendered stationary to use it, making you the easiest target in the world to hit, and B) the Prowler will still have to consistently hit a moving target able to deploy an 'immune to all damage' shield to buy itself time.

On top of all that, not only do you assume perfect aim from the Prowler, but you also ask for a full max upgrade lock-down Prowler, and enough time in your perfect scenario where nothing else attacks the now dead-in-the-water stationary Prowler.

Factional Stereotypes cut both ways

Stereotypes exist for a reason. Show me the stats that prove me wrong and that NC is NOT the faction with the least kills most deaths and most TK's.

When you do, you will have proven me wrong. In fact, I would not mind, because that would mean the NC would have improved since I last checked and that would mean more competent enemies for me to fight.

Get to it. Empty rebuttals are worthless.

It doesn't seem suspicious at all to you that the "exceptions" where NC does on par or better are NS weapons/vehicles or cross-faction clones (ie, things where in theory the equipment shouldn't be the differentiating factor because said equipment is identical across factions), while the things that "prove" your point are either NC-exclusive gear that is underperforming, or in the case of teamkills a blatant misrepresentation? After all, we just went over how NC actually has the LOWEST teamkill rate, despite the fact that high-alpha weapons are more likely to TK an ally than wound them and give a warning. Apparently, NC went and learned themselves some trigger discipline.

Does picking up an NS item magically make that bad NC into a good NC? Because if your theory relies on magic, I'm afraid it doesn't have much to stand on.

One thing that's funny is how a fairly large nerf to the Vanguard shield ended up having a pretty small impact on its performance. It did suffer a little bit, but compared to the size of the nerf it was tiny. It's only when the shield stops working entirely due to a bug (which has happened a couple times) that the Vanguard's performance completely craters.

I believe this is because the actual strength of the shield doesn't actually matter very much, so long as it is in a range high enough to get the correct psychological reaction out of enemy players who see it but low enough that the shield isn't actually the dominant force they think it is. Both the current and prior incarnations of the shield were within this range, so the effect of moving between them was minimal.

Essentially, in its current state the shield doesn't necessarily derive its power from its HP. Its power lies in getting people to stop shooting. So long as people stop shooting when they see it, they will continue to believe that it is invincible. If it ever gets to the point where it cannot cause people to stop shooting, all of its power will evaporate in an instant and it will suddenly become worthless. People would probably then wonder how a small change, much smaller than the previous nerf, could cause it to go from OP to worthless in an instant. The truth would be that it was never OP, they just never tried to defeat it.

The "IWin shield" only exists in the heads of bad tankers.

The NC have the most TKs... but that's because they have the highest population. Per capita they actually have the fewest TKs per player:

I don't think it's ever been the case that the NC are the worst TKers... NC weapons are horrible, and that means that not only do they kill less of the enemy, but of course they kill less of each other as well.

Talk to any VS player, Lasher and Maggie kills... I shutter to event pull those stats. Granted I can see where one might get a bit carried away when roaming around with massive shotguns and mangling your targets to bits. But I'd still wager a bet that the PPA Lasher and Maggie have claimed more lives than friendly NC on NC fire.

None of this matters though, numbers wise, I still can't see a gaping chasm in any of the stats posted in this thread that would lead me to believe that the Van is anything but a formidable match irregardless of its opponent.

As has been said (and shown) it is on-par/sub-par, but basically it is (even if only slightly) the overall weakest of the 3 MBTs, it certainly isn't the strongest, nor indeed does it remotely need a nerf.

Population at any given time will be a better indicator of your personal success with most game weapons.

Most other things being close or equal, having a friendly doing additional damage makes a notable difference. If you want to just compare 1v1 stats, then knock yourselves out, but I can't see the developers basing their balance strategy around that.

So you are complaining that it performs at the level or just slightly below the other tanks correct?

I fail to see how something that is by your own words on par/ slightly sub par needs changing. That's like saying damage for the Mag is on par but it's armor is sub par but overall it's on par with the other MBT's Or that the prowler is sub par in survivability in lock down bUT it's damage is on par with other MBT's (I know it's not but I needed a comparator)

Besides all that it's an asymmetrical game, there are 3 different sides and 3 different MBT's with different characteristics. It's impossible to equate one directly to the other. And that's on purpose. ..

It should look like each tank has areas where it falls below in performance when compared to similar characteristics of the others. When they don't you get the early version of the Mag which most certainly outperformed both tanks in every aspect. I still fail to see where the Van or Prowler or Mag is fighting an uphill stats battle. They all look pretty flatline to me.

So you said it does not need a nerf and since they are all so close a buff would throw the favor in its direction, what are you really asking for?

Ps please excuse autocorrect/lack there of due to my response by phone.