How often are you killed by a HE round?

I haven't, but as I stated a while ago in counter to your meaningless stats, it's usage is too low to account for.

Is it's usage low for a good reason? Yes... it's subpar. Significantly so.

making it a murder machine is not the answer though and won't happen, so go back to the drawing board

so you straight up just said that HE's subpar & that you don't die to HE pretty much if ever.

Too bad we can't ask you for how many times you got killed by HE prior to August 4. Though of course, that's why I bring up those relevant statistics.

Then how would you suggest we increase usage of HE cannon then? If the answer isn't to buff HE, what is the answer?

On the other hand, obviously (despite all statistical evidence), HE was some kinda problem or something.

Lemme put it this way.

AV tanks already have enough lethality for killing infantry.

The only thing AI specialized loadouts should add is utility, aka, suprresion in the form of light splash damage.

HEAT is a pretty good trade for that.

HE is not.

they could add more radius again but have that damage pitifully low. It'd be enough to keep shields from regening, and regen implants from activating, and with enough barrage (MINIMUM 10 splash hits) actually die.

Wanting what you want, the old ridiculous fire in a doorway and get kills, WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

I do not have to argue the balance merit of this. It's been decided and it's not going to be undone.

But feel free to scream at a wall though. I'm sure it makes you feel better

You could just do what most people do and forget it exists...

I do have a prowler AI loadout for it still, but as I said, AV tank loadouts kill infantry perfectly fine, so why use anything else?

Fact is we don't NEED anything else.

So they should just amke all continents Wallamir so no tanks can fire into infantry base fights?

Is that your solution? Cause it's a terrible one.

Oh come on, you yourself are good enough with numbers to know that this is a completely inflated statistic! If you get killed during a C4 run you are much more likely to be carrying your primary weapon than the C4, as you only pull that just before you are about to get kills.
The nature of C4 also means that the KDR is inflated. Since it takes a short time to arm you are more likely to use it while you are relatively unseen and can detonate it within that time. Unlike a primary weapon, which you will use in almost any situation, good or bad.

That's not an acceptable solution. Essentially what you're doing is recognizing that there is a horrible balance issue here and choosing to completely ignore it. The so-called "ostrich approach" if you will.

Which is about par for the course on how tankers have been treated in PS2, and certainly correlates with data on PS2's decreasing viability as a game.

Actually, my personal experience of gunning down C4 faeries is that most of them will equip the C4 as they take off. The reasoning behind that of course is that you can't really shoot anyone in midflight, so there's really no reason to have your small arms equipped. On the other hand, equipping C4 early means less hassle once you're over the target.

Sure C4 will have a higher KDR because it has a different usage pattern, but that doesn't change the situation around C4. In fact, you've essentially argued the same thing that I have... that even the normal usage of C4 is all too easy and cheesy. It is a weapon with a very short TTK against infantry and tanks, meaning that it is going to achieve a high KDR.

If C4 were nerfed as hard as HE was nerfed, you would definitely see a lowering in all stats.

However hypocrital of me... Emotion is the most important factor in game balance. If you've got set of completely balanced weapons but nobody likes them the system should be changed. If players like something even though one weapon is OP and the other is UP the system works.
Now if there is disagreement with the system, statistical evidence can be used to prove it and get a better system, but the goal should always be to make it more fun. And fun is an emotion. This does mean that you need to keep your emotions out of the way while providing your statistical evidence, but any call for change will be based on emotion at first. If you didn't have an emotion, you wouldn't have asked for a change in the first place.

All I can say is that it was a force Auraxium for the HE. Just needed that shiny plating.

Seriously, tanks are fine.

I watch how you guys play; I pull tanks a lot as well and that "I'm invincible" because I'm a tank mentality is just naive. You rush into a zerged battle with 50 infantry thinking you're somehow immune is extremely dumb to begin with.

If you cannot get kills without splash, I'm sorry, that's not my fault. You just want to farm those 50 people, easy-mode.

If tanks weren't a threat, you wouldn't see everyone whip out their AV weapons at the first sight of one.

One-shot HE mechanics are just lame. The game was extremely lame because of it.

Throwing out your anectodal populations are dropping because of no HE is also lame. Games typically always drop in population over time, out of boredom or any other number of reasons.

Dare I say way, way more people probably quit because of those early HE mechanics than any perceived amount of people quitting because they nerfed tanks. I know I did.

Okay... so in your last 100 deaths, how many times were you killed by HE? How much did this "lame" HE mechanic affect you?

So far, the answer seems to be that the "lame" HE mechanic actually doesn't kill anyone that much... if anything the data conclusively shows that you are more likely to die to the "lame" C4 OHK mechanic than you are to HE.

Can I put you down then on my petition to remove C4 from the game?

Trying to say, "look, no one dies to HE" is like saying the sun shines. Of course hardly anyone dies to it because it was nerfed and nerfed for good reasons.

I use to rack up insane kills spamming HE shortly after release. It was comically stupid and easy. At first, I was on the receiving end, then I wised up and did nothing but tanks just so I could nerd enrage everyone, schadenfreude like, and I was damn good at it.

But a C4 run is more than the last flight to the tank. And any C4 fairy that switches before taking off is shooting himself in the foot as discovery in the early stages of flight will mean that you need your primary weapon.

I agree that C4 itself has too much utility and usage. What I disagree with is removing any weapon from doing a OHK on tanks if you can escape view or 10 second placement timers for 2 C4 or completely crushing C4's ability to work properly. You could split it, have one C4 type for infantry and a different gadget or tanks so people need to choose and there's less attacks of oppertunity. I've already posted at least two idea's to change how the OHK works or tanks, and a ton more updates for tanks to ward off infantry. Yet rather than reacting to that I'm just called an infantrysider and some arguments are given with the intent to completely remove C4rs ability to kill vehicles without an alternative. And don't call 5 second arming timer while near the vehicle per brick a real alternative.

Well having weapons collect dust isn't good either. Instead of saying let's leave it nearly useless let us I don't know. Find an alternative, like that of being posted in this thread.

Nah, see, now you are just trying to make sense.. that is not gonna over well....

Answer the question please. In your last 100 deaths, how many times has it been to HE? And how much has HE affected your gameplay within the last 100 deaths?

As for pre-nerf, that's why I provided the statistics. Because it's not possible to travel back in time and look at your last 100 deaths on August 3, 2014. However, we can see from the data that things were pretty much the same pre-HE nerf as post-HE nerf, in terms of people being killed:

Prowler HE Kills (adjusted for population)
August 3, 2014- 3,681/67,362= 0.0546
August 3, 2015- 2,596/55,289= 0.0469

On the other hand, C4:

TR C4 Kills (adjusted for population)
August 3, 2014- 12,318/67,362= 0.183
August 3, 2015- 14,526/55,289= 0.263

To put that data into words...

If we assume that each Prowler HE or TR C4 kill was made on a different individual (not necessarily the most accurate assumption but an illustrative one), then prior to the HE nerfs 5.5% of the population experienced the effects of HE and 18.3% of the population experienced the effects of C4. Over time HE has actually remained fairly constant, and one year after the nerfs affects 4.7% of the population (-0.8%). C4, however, has increased in its impact on the population over time, jumping to 26.3% (+8%).

So maybe your personal anecdote is correct. I dunno, I wasn't there. But the data from the time shows that every time you killed someone with the HE cannons, many more people died to a C4 maniac. And to top it off the experience with HE over time has remained fairly similar, but C4 has become even more problematic.

Again, this isn't how C4 is regularly deployed. And the evidence backs up this fact. For example, on average each NC C4 user will have C4 equipped for 216.5 seconds (3.6 minutes) per day. That doesn't quite bring to mind the quick switching out that you think happens. If we further examine the data and note that on average the NC C4 user kills 3.73 people per day with C4, then that's about 58 seconds per kill (of course this includes runs that don't successfully end in kills).

They key problem of C4, to both tanks and infantry, is the extremely low TTK and OHK potential. Splitting C4 into infantry and tank variants will not solve this problem, as both versions of C4 would presumably retain their low TTK and OHK potential. The only way to fix this is by increasing TTK or reducing OHK potential.

Forcing the C4 charges to be "planted" will increase TTK, as well as provide viable counterplay for both tanks and infantry against C4.

If you could explain how your changes would result in increased TTK and/or reduced OHK potential, I'm all for it. But if you do not address either one or both of those issues, then you have not solved the key problems with C4.

I have no idea how many times I died to HE. I don't examine every death or pour over my statistics. I tend not to put myself in dumb, compromising positions in the first place, if I can, but I do die to tanks and I tend to flee if I see them.

Why don't you compare all tank kills and combine them, HE, AP and HEAT. Throwing out dumb numbers of a nerfed item versus something that hasn't changed is extremely biased.

Tank kills are tank kills.

In any case, I have no idea what the 2014 HE guns were like because I quit prior to that because of HE. I'm talking about the HE upon release in 2012 and 2013. If there were slight nerfs in between the so-called armeggedan day of 2014, who knows.

None, cause they FIXED it already

As for C4.... you're missing the point.

an infantryman can shoot the C4 user. He has several secods to do so. You're going to see that infantry player again and kill him even if he gets you with C4.

It's not some armored tank sitting 200m back lobbing infinite shells thx to an ammo sundy into the base.

Furthermore, it's required in the current infantry meta as a MAX busting tool. Granted AT mines and Archer have been added to the mix to finally give infantry more options, but C4 remains critical for busting MAXes or pushing into rooms... and also yes, for busting tankers who get to damn close.

You're spitting out numbers how C4 is more effective... first off, compared to old HE, not even close. Current HE, yeah, because they've had to nerf it (multiple times) But you have 50 to 100 rounds of HE in your tank, and can be infinitely resupplied, for free, from someone farming resupply certs. You have a much higher rof, your reload is about the same as throwing 1 brick and then being able to detonate it... that is, an HE can fire, reload, and be ready to fire again in the time it takes C4 user to cause his first, blast... with only 1 to follow.

Finally, C4 has much MUCH more opportunity to get the kills both from being in the middle of the action of infantry blobs, as well as being carried by every single LA in the fight. It costs per use, but once bought you don't buy another til used, so everyone has a couple bricks of the stuff. It has opportunity and presence that if given to a tank would only ensure that infantry didn't even exist.

You're so wrapped up in this thought that tanks should be these powerhouse behemoths that you can't even conceive of how negatively that can actually impact a game.

Tanks STILL OHK infantry, if you've got the skill to make a shot, which ISN'T that damn hard. It's easier to snipe infantry at 250m with AP than it is with a BASR ffs, AND you're armored and hard to kill.

But it just doesn't seem like it's enough for you unless a tank can look in the direction of infantry, sneeze, and kill half a squad.