Why is there no hard counter to Air atm?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Jingstealer, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Klabauter8

    ESFs are only good in A2G if you give them the right equipment. Just like Lightnings are only good in AA if you give them a Skyguard. And if you have Hornet Missiles on your ESF then you will also have severe disadvantages towards ESF with AA weaponry.

    Yes, ESF can fly, are very fast and have very good mobility, but this doesn't mean anything. It is also incredibly hard to aim with them, you need very good situational awareness and eyes, you easily can lean yourself too far out of the window and suddenly have the whole field shooting at you, or some hidden Engineer AV turret out of nowhere taking you down, and just controlling them and not crashing into the next mountain is already not easy.
  2. Demigan

    AA players:
    AA is not fun for <reasons>

    Aircraft players:
    AA is not fun for <reasons>

    Both sides dislike the current system, why don't we change it to something both like?


    Why don't aircraft players like current AA?
    Current AA has skill-reducing mechanics. Lock-Ons and Flak need little skill to use and hit aircraft, there is no real escaping it hitting you. This feels terrible for players, there is simply no way to avoid it, and all you have to do is fly near it and you'll get hit.

    Why don't AA players like current AA?
    Because there is a skill-reducing mechanic for almost each AA weapon, they needed a limited power. This is why aircraft an escape any solo AA, and it feels powerless unless you have multiple AA sources. But then you have to share your kills, and hope the aircraft don't just fly off somewhere where there is no AA.


    What is the best solution?
    Reduce or remove the amount of skill-reducing mechanics, and improve the power of AA, maybe change a few mechanics. If aircraft can fly over 6 AA sources without getting hit through skill, but AA sources in the meantime can fight back if they have the skill for it and actually kill aircraft.
  3. WinchesterLock

    You just need to be more creative and quit expecting to be a one-man army.

    But if you insist on trying to do some damage solo, just do what I do, it's cheap and highly effective. Pull a walker harasser.
    At 150 nanites per harasser:
    • It is a fraction of the price of an AA MAX and skyguard, so if you lose it, it is no big deal
    • Has access to turbo by default, so it is quick and agile (so you can get it into a variety of locations and out of trouble)
    • Walker does good damage to enemy air, and also damages enemy vehicles and base turrets
    • Has a tight cone of fire and fast muzzle velocity, so it is easy to aim at a distance (I've destroyed quite a few deployed sunderers at a distance, this way)
    • Also does quite decent against infantry (assuming you position the harrasser properly to allow it to aim downward)
    Of course though, it is most effective if you have at least a 2 man crew for it, but I've done quite well doing solo play with a walker harasser. Just like with AA MAX and Skyguard, don't expect a lot of kills, but instead a lot of assists. (it's a shame those don't at least count for something)

    Although, you can also do similar stuff with the ranger on a harasser, but it doesn't hurt enemy armor, so you are gimping yourself, and the cone of fire is awful. On the other hand, the explosions from the flak scare the daylights out of newer pilots, so the Rangers are great at scaring them off (and they do pack a punch against aircraft).

    If you are working with teams or squads, dual walker sunderers or walker/ranger buses are also fun additions for anti-air.
    But getting back to what I said, sometimes, you just need to be a bit more creative and remember, this is a team game. So remember, use your team to your advantage (and more often than not, as distractions).
  4. LodeTria


    If a tank gives up an AV secondary for an AA one, he will auto loose verses any AP/AP tank (baring player stupidity). This is no-where near as bad as ESF with Rocketpods / Hornets because the nosegun is a very viable A2A weapon.

    And the tank that is now auto losing? He can only "deter" ESF's & valkeryies with his walker, a liberator will laugh at you while you attempt to deter him as he tank busts & daltons you. Lets not even discuss the ranger because if you think that's strong any argument you had is out the window. If the noseguns were as pants as Walkers & rangers you might have a point, but they aren't.
    • Up x 1
  5. Klabauter8

    I mostly fly the Valkyrie and even in this I easily can dodge most lock-ons. I wouldn't say that it takes no skills to use lock-on. If you use heavy unit lock-on launchers, you need to be numerous enough to be effective and have good positioning. This can take some skills. Organization skills and tactical skills. Just because it is not simply about aiming, does not mean they take no skills.

    And if you use coyote lock-ons on ESF, then it also takes some skills. Not as much aiming skills as with a nosegun, but you need to fire them in the right moment, while with the nosegun it is not that terrible if some shots don't hit, since your magazine is big enough, you have enough range and enough munition.

    I personally find AA good the way it is. The problem is just the organization of the people and that they use it too rarely, imo. One neat thing they could perhaps give us would be a stationary big AA turret which you could transport with a Sunderer. This one would be quite cool and would be ok if it would hit harder than Skyguards for example.
  6. Klabauter8

    An AA tank also can position itself much better so that it doesn't get disturbed by other tanks. An ESF is so mobile and vulnerable, that it basically has to fly from here to there the whole time and do huge rounds, so of course it needs to be more prepared against both ground and air.

    With an AA tank you can just easily camp somewhere on the top of a hill or near a Sunderer, with your friendly troups between you and the enemy and basically have your peace there and still have a good position to hit aircrafts. With an ESF it is not really possible to camp. In contrary, you constantly have change positions and always attack from different angles.
  7. Demigan

    I understand that there are people who do enjoy the current AA system. However you do point out something: you need tactics and/or teamplay, and you need numbers. You say it yourself: people use AA weapons too rarely. This is because the majority finds AA weapons not fun and not rewarding, and they are right. It is not fun, just looking into the sky and hoping enough others also damage the target. It is not fun having to rely on others to defeat the most lone-wolf vehicle in the game with the most privileges, advantages and hardest weapons.

    The developers wanted aircraft to be AA so that players would use them more, but then left things like Reverse Maneuver and a half-***** flight system which meant that only a select amount of players can actually fly without getting their ***** stomped (I enjoyed it while RM still wasn't used that much even though the weapons were even more ridiculously OP back then). In the meantime they gave aircraft enough firepower and multi-tasking weapons and abilities that they can attack just about anything. Seeing that they kept ground-based AA the way it is this means that aircraft have too much power and too little counters, unless more AA is used at which point AA power spirals out of control. How can you approach a bunch of Flak and Lock-ons if they barely have to aim (although you do need to lead a lot)?
    • Up x 3
  8. ColonelChingles

    The Tank Buster does 334 damage per shot, with 10x2 shots per second (there is good evidence to suggest that the Liberator fires off two shots at once). It has a 30-round belt and a 3.5 second reload.

    Against the top of a Skyguard, each shot is reduced to 140.28 damage by the Lightning's directional armour and then to 63.126 damage by the AP MG damage type modifier. This means it would require 48 shots to kill the 3,000HP Lightning. A Liberator can do this in 5.9 seconds (1.5 seconds shooting + 3.5 second reload + 0.9 seconds shooting).

    Against the rear of a Skyguard, damage per shot is increased to 102.204 damage or exactly 30 shots to kill. This would take 1.5 seconds for the Liberator to kill the Skyguard, all in a single belt.

    So if a 1/3 Liberator can kill a Skyguard in 1.5-5.9 seconds, how long does the Skyguard take to kill the Liberator back? According to your claim, the Skyguard TTK against the Liberator must be less than 5 seconds if it can kill you right after a reload, right?

    Skyguard flak does 60 damage per hit, at 8 shots per second, with a 70 round belt, and a 3 second reload. Against a 5,000HP Liberator this is reduced to 39 damage per shot from the Liberator's resistance to flak damage. So it would take the Skyguard 129 hits to kill the Liberator, or 19.125 seconds (8.75 seconds shooting + 3 second reload + 7.375 seconds shooting).

    A single-person Liberator can destroy a Skyguard in 1.5-5.9 seconds.
    A single-person Skyguard can destroy a Liberator in 19.125 seconds.

    There is no way that a Skyguard can kill the Liberator before it itself is killed.
    • Up x 4
  9. Klabauter8

    Yes they use it too rarely, because most players don't play organized enough. However people also rarely know how to fly effectively, so this kinda evens it out imo.
  10. Cham


    Since we played PS1. It's inevitable that A2G would get nerfed, because it pisses people off when they die to it, despite the fact it's easily countered.
  11. Goretzu

    If you only give Skyguards a 100m radius I'm not sure it would matter if they had 1,000,000 DPS.

    I think Skyguards are ok, but it is never quite that simple, because at ranges where you're relatively safe in a Skyguard are ranges where you need to be a very good aim (or rather a very good lead), and still you'll not be able to kill any awake Air because of the CoF (even with perfect leading) - you'll drive Air off at those ranges, or at least stop them from doing anything other than attack runs, but you won't get many kills.

    Ranges where you're likely to get kills (or indeed be an effective enough deterent to stop attack runs) means your Skyguard generally needs to be up there or there abouts with the front line and when you're their you do need to guard against sky-tunnel vision, because it only takes a bit of Armour or AV harrasser (or a C4 Fairy) to ruin your day.
    • Up x 2
  12. CipherNine

    You see Chingles this is what happens when you think about ground/air balance but don't have any flying experience yourself.

    1)Why would Skyguard start firing only after the Lib has come close? Why wouldn't it start firing as soon as the Lib gets within render distance? Main advantage Skyguard has over Liberator is range. If you start shooting when Liberator is already on top of you then it is too late.

    2) In 99% of cases Skyguard will notice Liberator first. After all Liberator has much larger hitbox, moves much faster and has freaking sky as background. You can't possibly miss it.

    So Skyguard will start shooting at the Liberator first and during that time pilot will need to locate where that damage is coming from. Then he would need to align his aircraft for tankbuster pass.

    3)Have you ever tried tank busting ground target? Smart tank drivers will drive towards you which means you can't maintain aim on them unless you want to crash into ground. After you fire your first salvo you will have to realign the Lib for another tank buster pass and that does take some time all the while Skyguard is shooting at you.


    So as you can see it takes much more than 5,9 seconds for Liberator to kill the Skyguard once Skyguard opens fire.

    There are many factors which increase Liberators TTK and they can't be determined without doing an actual simulated duel.

    Every single Skyguard I've killed as a Liberator happened to be distracted which allowed me to open fire first and then let my gunner finish him. I doubt I'd be able to aim the tankbuster once Skyguard opens fire cuz you can't see anything from cockpit once flaks starts exploding in your face.
  13. CipherNine

    I meant they should be able to protect vehicles within 100m range not that they should have 100m firing range.

    If aircraft requires 300m to effectively damage ground vehicle (plinking health slowly from distance doesn't count; and I'm making this number up) then Skyguard should have 400m range but it should have really huge DPS to destroy any aircraft which gets within that range.
  14. Blue_Shift

    I wish they increased the damage just a touch on the archer against esf. Cause hitting esf is a bit of a chore at long range. maybe 5 shot kill instead of 6. The skyguard seems to be okay where it is.. I understand peoples frustration with the lack of range. But when you think about it, It does deny esf or libs a certain area. It is an area denier, and not a cert farmer. \
  15. Alox

    In general I think the performance at long range of MAX bursters and skyguards are OK. However, within 50-100 m they should be much more deadly and not just a deterrent.
  16. ColonelChingles



    Why does range matter to a unit that is extremely maneuverable and able to fight in three dimensions against a target that is limited to a two-dimensional plane?

    Sure if that LA shotgunner over there clearly announces himself to the bloke with the sniper rifle 300m and proceeds to walk directly towards the sniper without using cover, that shotgunner stands a good chance of being dead. But if the shotgunner actually uses their head and takes advantage of cover that is unavailable to the sniper, then the shotgunner can easily and harmlessly close the distance.

    I have been the target... and these are usually a Liberator coming in over a ridge close to the ground. TTK is actually significantly less than 5.9 seconds with a mixture of top and rear hits.

    Even in a single pass, chances are that I'm already going to bail from my Skyguard if it isn't already destroyed because it's a smoking wreck. No chance to pull back and hide from a Liberator... might as well bail and redeploy to prevent those cheesy players from getting another kill to add to their loooong and undeserved list.
  17. Shatteredstar

    Hard counter to air, 4 HA with lock on launchers. Or 2-3 dual burster maxes. Clear skies!
  18. Jubikus

    The reason AA seems useless is well because its only purpose is against air and it doesn't kill them. With a good Dolton Liberator 2 man crew they can kill tanks infantry and other air a jack of all trades their hard counters however specifically designed to take out air is a simple deterrent the crap part comes in well when the air simple goes somewhere else. When a Dolton lib is pulled to take out tanks and it does its job and kills them off what does it do well it goes off and kills infantry and other air what does a skyguard do well nothing it cant do **** against anything but air and it doest even kill them off just scares them away.

    The problem with AA in this game is it sucks *** by itself when AV and AI dont but when theres several of them its OP 3 skyguards will turn several hexes into no fly zones. So what are the developers supposed to do? I dont know but if a Raven max is allowed to destroy a tank with fair ease why shouldn't bursters?
    • Up x 1
  19. Jubikus

    1. Yes they can maby not in a head on engagement where the skyguards is shooting it long before it gets in range but this is hardly the case your average stealth dolton lib will come around behind you and drop you before you know they exist i mean they can take out MBT with 1 pass with a tankbuster + 1 round of a dolton lightnings dont survive the tankbuster.
    2. Tankbuster can easily take out a lightning if they come from behind which can easily be done since well you can fly.
    3.ESF can excape because they can use afterburners to simply drop below the nearest mountain/building cover so you cant keep on them. Yes hornets can kill skyguard if you sneak up on them which isnt too hard when you can fly.

    I dont like skyguards because they are a deterrent i like something thats a solution which is probibly why ive shot down more aircraft with AP prowler/lightning than my skyguard and killed more ESF with my Decimator than my Annihilator.
    • Up x 1
  20. CipherNine

    Simply because if you add time it takes for Liberator to enter tankbuster range its time-to-kill Skyguard will triple. And this is without counting the time it takes for Lib to actually spot the Skyguard and decide whether to attack.

    Lib is fast but that doesn't mean it arrives instantenously so travel time is a non-factor lol.

    But your job as a Skyguard is specifically to be on lookout for aircraft.

    So to use your analogy: that sniper did a mistake if he positioned himself in a way that allowed shotgunner to sneak up on him.

    So what stopped you from repositioning somewhere else where there was no ridge blocking your line of sight?

    I'm sorry but this is error on your part, there are plenty areas Skyguard can position itself so Liberator can't sneak up on him. Being next to a ridge makes you perfect target for Liberator.

    Yeah well tankbuster wont bring your Skyguard from health to burning in one clip. Rear shots are no excuse because if you have headphones you can hear the Liberator and turn around before he pops out.

    Hard counter means that if both Liberator and Skyguard have same skill level, the Skyguard will win. It doesn't mean you can always deter Liberator and every place and every time. If you do a basic mistake like choosing bad position to provide AA coverage from then the issue is not in the Skyguard, issue is in you.

    Here is my advice: if you think Liberator is cheesy then try flying it. You will quickly change your mind.