How do you justify 800m range on the Lancer & Vortex?

Lancer is the best performing AV ESRL.

However equally when you look at all ESRL in terms of AI, AV and AA they do come out reasonably well balanced, just different.

Striker 2.0 could use a small AV buff though (not an AA one however IMO).

True that the Lancer is the best AV, Striker is best at air and Phoenix is the best overall stat wise. Phoenix is definitely the most fun. Striker is - well - kinda pants...

Hitting stuff at range with the Lancer is a real challenge and if you do, the damage is so minimal that even getting an MBT to move because of it is a result. A lone lancer isn't going to scare anyone.

HOWEVER - when used as a group at mid-range, the Lancer gets stunning results. A few outfits run Lancer squads occasionally (Trident do) and it's a blast. Quite literally. The squad leader calls out a target - a few seconds later after charge-up, it's dead. Repeat.

In all honesty - the extended range is a bit meh and not worth complaining about. As a force multiplier it's very good - but then, the same can be said about many many weapons in the Planetside arsenal.

The high range is mitigated by the relatively low damage. It's only really very good for high range encounters, which only remain high range for as long as it takes enemy armor to get irritated enough to chase you down, or a sniper decides to investigate the ginormous blue beam hanging in the air.

Here's some quick info from another post I made in another thread, with one or two corrections. Assuming I did the math correctly (And my VR testing last night seemed to support this)

Resistances from the wiki: http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Vehicle_armor_and_damage_resistance
Lancer stats are below: Vs a Prowler ( -100% resistance to Lancer rounds, with 63% front armor )
All MBTs have 4000 HP

750 * (1 - (-1) ) * ( 1 - .63)
750 * ( 2 ) * ( .37 )
750 * .74
555

555 total damage per 3 charge shot vs front armor, at approximately 3 seconds per triple-charge shot, plus 5 seconds to reload
Needing 8 3 charge shots... ( 8*555 = 4440 ) to down an MBT.

3+3+5 + 3+3+5 + 3+3+5 + 3+3 seconds. Approximately 39 seconds to remove a prowler. The lancer is an excellent tool when used in groups, but it isn't as good as you make it out to be either, save for when you can set up firing lines well in advance, and in a concerted effort. With that much time to prepare (And a platoon that will actually follow instructions in time to matter) it's just as easy to set up a firing line of MBTs, if not easier.

People like versatility, and while the Lancer is versatile, most prefer something that packs more punch with less exposure then is required to fire a triple-charge shot - using this thing within 200 meters of an even semi-aware tanker is suicide ( Thus it's hard to organize, since no one really carries them, in my experience. ) At 800 meters, if the target is moving, chances are that (save for galaxies), the shot will not hit. (It is a blazingly fast projectile, but it is not hitscan. ) The true power of the Lancer is that it's irritating to face. You won't be scoring any kills with the thing after even half of it's maximum range, but you will be denying your opponents cover via constant pinging, which allows for friendly armor to advance, people to sneak through firing lines, etc.

I am absolutely in favor of significant striker buffs, but long range capabilities in the order of the Lancer comes with a cost. I imagine that if similar stats were proposed for the Striker, the TR community (in general) would still be rather pissed.

( Random Striker-buff idea, to go along with all the others. Make the rockets apply a damage multiplier for the next striker round, increasing damage of consecutive hits by a % - ending with a full magazine of consecutive hits being ~1.75 dumbfire rounds, or perhaps leave a damage-over-time affect on the target, decreasing resistance to subsequent hits of other AV hits by ~5-10% or so. )

Lancer stats for reference:

It's not that low when you consider that a lock-on launcher does the exact same damage, and their lock times are typically longer than the Lancer's charge time (especially near the edge of their range).

A lock-on against the same armor would do 1000*1.5*0.37=555 damage, same as the Lancer. Except the lock-on has (if I remember the range scaling mechanics right) a roughly 3-5 second lock time depending on range, and whether the target has Stealth. And it has to reload every time it fires, for 5.2 seconds. Or 4.7 for the Annihilator, but IIRC the Annihilator compensates for it with +1 second to lock time.

So if you know how to aim, the Lancer straight up replaces your ground lock-on easily. It's no Decimator of course, but there's a reason the Decimator has such short range. That was part of what made the old Striker so ridiculous after all, it was the illegitimate child of an Annihilator and a Decimator.

In my experience, when I'm using one by myself usually the enemy won't be too scared the first time I hit, but the second time they start panicking. I suppose that's the point where they realize it's not a fluke and I actually can hit them from there.

But really, the key to using the Lancer well is to basically use it the same way you would a lock-on. Either in groups, or in support of other AV. Interrupting tank-vs-tank fights with a Lancer is an extremely effective way to tilt a battle in your team's favor, and steal some kills while you're at it. Landing rear shots on fleeing tanks is also a great way to secure kills with brutal efficiency, as not many things can outrun a Lancer.

These 2 weapons allow VS to shoot down deployed sunderers (you know, stationary and broad side of the barn kind of big) from 1-2 bases away without any chance at retaliation. They are the main reason why VS have easier time winning most alerts on practically all servers. Primarily lancer is an easily exploitable weapon.

TR/NC have nothing like it (unless you count base turrets, but those have much more limited placement than some random heavy assault with Lancer for example).

Reduce effective range to 300m (after that range no damage same as engie AV turret) and it'll be fine. Though frankly even at 300m it's too effective, since it's absolutely trivial to aim at that range (no drop and very fast velocity), again something no other faction has.

A fair point, I hadn't done that particular calculation. I usually haul my dumbfire launcher around on Indar / Hossin due it's usefulness vs infantry / maxes / alpha damage potshotting tank rear armor, and my Lancer around on Esamir / Amerish due to long range between bases. (Standard dumbfire does 629.925 damage to front armor, as opposed to the 555 for lockons, for if anyone wants that particular number - 1 less required to down a MBT vs front armor)

I suppose the cost a Lancer pays for it's range / projectile velocity, is that of it's lack of effectiveness vs infantry and high exposure time when charging / lining up shots. I frequently use the Lancer in the manner you describe, although I find that the engie AV turret is a vastly better choice in most of the same scenarios (The several hundred meters advantage the Lancer has vs the AV turret is quite nice, but even small movements at 500+ meters makes it simple to miss at that range, especially due to tanks flickering in and out of being rendered, hitbox shenanigans at that range, horrible curser precision when trying to make small adjustments even at low DPI, etc)

Really, i'd be fine with the Striker went laser-guided, if adjustments were made to compensate. A new firing mode option: .25 ADS, reduce clip size to half, increase damage and velocity by 30% per projectile. (Throwing numbers out there as a concept, not sure what that would actually be in terms of TTK )

I used to use dual vortexes on my max back when i still played a ton of PC and i was good enough to consistently hit targets at 500+ meters. Even ESF's at around 300. It's just a matter of predicting where the shot will land and aiming there. But i would never say these are over powered. 1 lancer/vortex at those ranges shouldn't even scare a tanker. Just sit behind a rock, find out where he is shooting from, then charge his ***! The DPS at those ranges is so small that if you die to 1 then it is your own fault. You will likely die if there are 3 or more of them shooting at you.

RadarX needs to have a look at that character because I highly suspect him of hacking.

It's one thing to get a thousand kills in under and hour but a single striker kill? Some people just love to flaunt their hacking abilities to the world I guess.

What are you talking about?! I get hundreds of striker kills! In the VR, when i'm playing with random stuff and only when I stab it a few times first...

Don't mind me, too much caffeine this afternoon.

so why do you cry? NC has Ravens which can decimate everything at longrange with GUIDED missiles. if anything, that was a very grave mistake: giving a MAX a guided weapon. oh and this weapon is still going strong to this day, no severe nerfs or anything even though it is clearly overperforming compared to other factions' longrange AV.

that said, the Lancer is pretty much a tickle cannon at those ranges you mention. you'll only harass some dudes or finish off burning vehicles if you're lucky. yes, it is extreme-longrange. yes, it has quite a potential to do damage. but does it actually overperform? no, not at all. so put a range cap on the Lancer and even less people will end up using it. or if a range cap is necessary, they should at least increase its damage as compensation.

Ravens were given the same range cap as the AV MANA turret, what are you talking about?

And did you miss the three or four posts above yours that firmly established that a charged Lancer is every bit as good as a lock-on, just with much better range and two "rockets" per reload?

This seems to be reinforcing my theory that the main reason a lot of VS don't use the Lancer is that they have no idea how it works.

VS knows how to use their launcher far better then NC. Also, No the lancer is not every bit as good as a lock on. Thats a terrible comparison. Its not a hitscan weapon and it has no scope.
I have never seen NC players actually bother setting up a squad of pheonixes. Why?

Its not that the VS know who to use their launcher better, It is because it is an easier launcher to use in groups. Unlike the Phoenix, any Lancer users in an area can see where their teammates are firing and they can instantly start focusing on the same target. The Phoenix on the other hand forces the user into a camera mode, which gives an extremely limited field of view the entire time the rocket is in flight, so the individual users are often unaware as to what targets the phoenix users beside them are targeting.

We set up Phoenix squads all the time, but they require another level of coordination, requiring one person to place a marker on the target, or coordinating the firing sequence, so that the lead Phoenix user picks a target and fires and the other fire a split second after them, so they can follow the lead rocket into to the same target.

800m is also a massive "zone out/Deadzone" creating range.

Awesome. I wish I saw them more, but I guess its best for my health that I don't.
We use a similiar level of coordination in squads for the lancer, which is why I picked the video out. In order to use a lancer proper the squad needs to hold fire until the leader picks a target, then everyone fires at that target in unison. If we don't targets will move, and its much harder to hit moving targets. To maximize alpha damage we fire 1 charged and empty the clip with three little shots. Our problem is, as simple as the gun is, it broadcasts our position when we fire. We're big targets for snipers and air.

I wish that I could order a drop on a hilltop to clear everything around with wait, WE DONT HAVE ANYTHING THAT SHOOT 700M!

Range isn't everything, but God ******* damit it gives a lot of options when you command.

I'll take the S1 over the Lancer. The lancer is easier for hitting moving targets, but the damage dealt is pathetic.

You do not see them because it takes a lot more effort and coordination and they are no where near as effective as a Lancer squads. We do Lancer squads too and trust me from experience they are so much easier and much more effective, hell we often have non squad members start firing their lancers with us, something not easily done with a phoenix, because its so tough to focus on targets because of the tunnel vision from the camera mode. You think hitting a moving target with the Lancer is difficult, you should try hitting one with the Phoenix and have 4 or 5 more people locate and hit the same target.

We have found one of the best methods is to have the lead Phoenix user stand a few meters in front of everyone else, and they count down to launch, then everyone fires a split second later, then all we need to do is keep the lead Phoenix rocket in our camera sights, then we can follow it to whatever target.

Phoenix squads are fun, but they are not very flexible. You need to find a relatively safe location to shoot from and you are really limited by range. The nice thing about a Lancer squad is you can stay fairly mobile and when you do find a target, you almost instantly start putting damage on it and you can bob and weave to avoid incoming fire, the entire time. You can't do that with a phoenix as soon as you shoot you are a dead stick, just standing there waiting to get hit and if you are targeting something 250m away that is over 3 sec. of standing perfectly still.

You do know you can charge it for full damage right? Takes about same amount of time as to locking on with guided missile (also same damage....). Only difference lockons have 2.66 times less range (800m vs 300m).

Lancer is a superior weapon in every way, and no other faction has anything like it. Should have been nerfed 2.5 years ago.

For as good as Lancers and Vortexs are, Ravens are way, way more OP when it comes to long range AV.