It's time for the Cyclone to go the way of the Orion.

.75 ADS on SMGs is fine. Most SMGs aren't any good at ADS, and those that are have high TTK.

Except the Cyclone, which has almost NS level accuracy with the TTK on par with first gen ES SMGs that are way less accurate. That's the problem, it is far more versatile than all other SMGs. It also gains more from soft point and extended mags than other SMGs due to its 167dmg - soft point gives it a longer 3 headshot kill, and it gains more damage from extra rounds because...its rounds do more damage obviously. Its accuracy and slower RoF also tends to make its ammo per mag go further, so unlike the Armistice I'd actually feel comfortable without extended mags on the thing.

I'm not saying it needs .75 ADS removed. I'm saying they need to balance it with other options. Which means higher horizontal recoil at the very least.

That or buff other ES SMGs to its level, although I'm not sure I like the idea of more SMG heavies. :/

Blitz with extended mag and laser sight? That shows how full of **** you are

If you read the entire thread, you would see I apologized, I get the two mixed up since I use them both. I use the blitz with laser and the cyclone with extended mags. I already apologized for the confusion though, people make mistakes. Get over it. I still stand by what I said, Cyclone isn't really as great as people make it out to be. If you want to nerf it, go nuts.

I still haven't seen a single post about how the Orion/VSLMGs can be improved upon after its upcoming change. Just a bunch of whiners demanding stupid nerfs to the other factions stuff.

It was standard VS opinion that the .75 wasn't really useful or important, but now that it's going away all of a sudden it was apparently very useful and requires butchering all other NC/TR weapons as retribution for removing.

I don't use cyclone for the same reason I don't use Anchor(sloppy recoil) so I could care less about the .75 on it, but how about some constructive suggestions instead of NERF whines?

While flinch was a huge help to NC, IMO it wasn't until they balanced hip fire accuracy that the NC were on equal footing with the other factions guns(particularly LMGs and ARs) and that didn't happen until around OMFG.

Then let's reverse your logic: Instead of needing a nerf for the Cyclone, which is pointless to begin with, there is a need to buff the other 1st generation SMGs.

Eridani is a stupid weapon. 25-round clip on a 143/shot gun is horrible to begin with. It then has right bias and relatively large horizontal recoil. Increase clip size and bring down the recoil or bloom a bit and it'll be comparable to the Cyclone.

Armistice is a little better in terms of recoil in that it has no bias. But the 30-round clip on a ~900 rpm gun is just pathetic. Obviously bringing that clip size up as well as decreasing horizontal recoil will do the weapon good.

As for your claim about it having an NS-level accuracy: NS-7 PDW has much, much better recoil. All SMGs have the same CoF. Cyclone is just as useless as the other ES SMGs outside CQC, and even within CQC it sees limited use. Moreover it absolutely needs extended magazines to be a viable weapon, just like the other 1st generation SMGs. Maybe not as much, but definitely so.


It seems like you haven't used the other SMGs. I have (thanks to the starter pack and the gold weapons!), as well as all SMGs available to the NC. PDW/MKV with extended magazines and the Blitz are both superior to the Cyclone, the former because of its ADS accuracy and the latter because it doesn't need extended mags and benefits a lot from a laser sight.

With the Cyclone you're going to ADS a lot more than the others thanks to the absolute need for extended mags (and rightfully so, considering how the weapon handles itself). Also, Blitz has a higher damage/magazine than the Cyclone with extended magazine.

I'm just trying to disillusion you of the incorrect notion that Cyclone is the be-all-end-all of SMGs. Like Ryker and me, most people I know choose the Blitz over the Cyclone because of ALS availability. SMG HAs are already a rare breed anyway.

That's more of an issue with those weapons being kinda sub-par in their given element though.

The Eridani needs to be more accurate (less horizontal recoil), and the Armistice just needs to get the extended mag ammo as it's default mag size (extra ammo per mag is a TR trait, after all).

Those changes alone would make both into far more competitive options.

Just remove SMG's off the HA class.

I agree.

(One thing I've noticed is that the Armistice and Cyclone are about equally useful outside 30m. The Cyclone jitters too much to land shots accurately, and the Armistice can't do enough damage to drop the target before he skitters off behind cover or spots you and mows you down).

Regardless, the PDW is far superior to everything else in the SMG class after 25m.
It also gets max damage at up to 15m (and I think that goes out to 18-20m with SPA), which makes it highly useful for close/mid range.

When I hear "the way of the Orion," I start to think that everybody feels that nerfs should be the way to solve every balance problem we have. That sucks, in my opinion. I've Auraxiamed the Orion months ago, it is my least favorite weapon as VS, and 0.75 ADS speed only matters with me on my SVA, which I haven't completed yet. That's the only negative thing that can happen to ME. But I'm seriously SICK AND F**KING TIRED of people always saying how despite being the most skillful faction, we ALWAYS get OP equipment. Nerf after disgusting nerf, the VS is truly the Naazi Germany of Planetside. It was good for a while, and then it all went down to crap. You have VS ARs that absolutely suck, carbines that are too mediocre to be called good, machine guns that are being nerfed, pistols that are STILL the worst in the game (except for the Spiker), sniper rifles that don't even have the normal faction "trait" (a noun that no longer applies not only to the VS, but increasingly with the other factions), and a MAX that wears high heels. If people can not deal with the fact that VS players are more skillful and serious on average than the other factions, then the nerfs will continue. Of course, you also have stupid crap the other teams have the displeasure of calling weapons, such as the Lynx, AMP, and ESPECIALLY, the MagScat (which isn't bad to me, but it's still bad in general), but they at least don't have to deal with crappy pistols, a dysfunctional MAX ability, and nerfs that we can expect at least once every 2-3 months. If the devs would work on actual asymmetric balance, as in CHANGING stuff, not nerfing them, nerf complaints would simply disappear.

I don't know about that. My knowledge of NC weaponry is limited as I've only played Heavy Assault on NC. But from a Heavy Assault perspective, they have a great heavy weapon, and their LMGs are excellent. I am continually shocked at how easy it is to headshot and put someone down in the first 4 bullets. TR's heavy weapon is also excellent but their LMGs are meh. VS lmgs are also meh, and their heavy weapon is pretty crappy.

If this trend applies to other classes as well (I can't say I know if they do -- I've only tried other classes on Vanu (Vanu have some good carbines!) and somewhat on TR (Cougars are pretty beastie) I wouldn't say NC is the worst faction to play...

If Armistice had 50 rounds per mag with Extended Mags, what would be the reason for Hailstorm to exist? Especially when it's already hanging by the thread.

I dunno, I feel like Armistice is in a good place right now. It's notably stronger than Cyclone in close quarters.
It does require good aim and trigger discipline, though.

Eridani would be saved with extra 5 rounds per magazine, which would make it usable with advanced laser sight, so you can really bank in on that SMG accurate hip fire and maximum damage range of 15m with SPA.

But maybe you're right. I do think Extended Mags is a kinda weird attachment. It should be an option, it should exist.
If it doesn't exist at all, it would remove the "meaningful choice / trade off" freedom.
If it comes built in with no penalty, these SMGs would be kinda too strong.

The problem here is that it takes up the rail slot, which is where you really want to use advanced laser sight on an SMG. The obvious thing here would be to make extended mags an ammo attachment, so in case of SMGs you have to choose between SPA or extended mags.

It really wouldn't need extended mags.
Think of it this way, the weapon itself -being a TR weapon- would just get the extended mag as a passive trait.
Those who have purchased the extended mag would get a cert refund (if you bought it with Smedbucks, you'd also get the cert price refunded. They've did this before in the early days on an item that was removed entirely, though I can't remember what it was).

And now you're free to throw on another attachment, along with extended mags (as they would become "passive", by way of the base stats changing).



Lastly:
Let's be honest, the Hailstorm is without doubt the worst SMG to date.
It's in line for a full overhaul in my book, but that's getting off topic.
We were talking about the Gen 1 SMGs.

I agree with the statement that the Cyclone isn't the problem, but overall weakness of quite a few SMGs is:

- No point to the MKV suppressed over a NS-7 PDW suppressed
- Armistice/Eridani can't effectively be played without ext.mags
- Eridani is supposed to be more of an ads smg, except 1) you can't put a grip on it (ext mags), 2) Sirius is actually superior to it in ads with a grip!
- Hailstorm has no counterpart to its slower RoF

I don't think ext mags should be mandatory at all. That's self-evident for the Eridani, but even for Armistice, while now a TR playing not having any practical TR smg experience just yet, from the onset i find it weird that the Armistice has such high RoF and barely more damage per mag than the Eridani, the exact same as the NS smgs actually, when usually TR has 5 rounds more (40 to 35, or 60 to 50 in case of Bull/NS-15).

That's what I used to think, too. But the MKV started to grow on me recently. It adds 0.2 seconds to the reload time (which is not that big of a deal), but fires 4% faster, . Those are the same reasons why people choose the Anchor over the GD-22S. But here's the kicker: It has faster muzzle velocity than the PDW with suppressor.

Also, unlike other NS weapons, MKV Suppressed has a right bias. But as with any gun, once you can control the recoil it's no big deal.

Both PDW and MKV are accurate enough to give you a choice between ALS and extended magazines. And that's where PDW and MKV seem to differ: PDW is more of an ADS weapon thanks to it being able to use a compensator, while MKV is more of a hipfire weapon, geared towards Infiltrators and LAs who need as much mobility as they can get.

I'm... not so sure the PDW needs a compensator unless One is intentionally trying to pre-bloom the CoF. Otherwise, this really is a "git gud" moment. As in, beyond baseline "can grip a mouse" good.

As for the topic itself, the Cyclone (and by extension, the Blitz) I feel is precisely what SMGs should aspire to. These weapons aren't all too common because the range fall off is their primary draw back, so they lack adaptability. The Cyclone and PDW sort of defeat this, but an actual LMG or carbine would still be better. After all, what good is that heavy shield if you're spending half of it's life span reloading?

The thing with the cyclone is that it's accurate even before the foregrip, it hits hard, and between the damage model and RPM, 25 rounds is pretty good. The blitz is pretty accurate too. More demanding of a foregrip to maintain accuracy like the Cyclone however.

The Eridani is, like many VS guns, in a weird spot where it settles for the "jack of all trades, master of none" role and kind of falls short for it. Coincidentally, it has the same DPS as the Sirius, where as the Cyclone > Blitz and very obviously the Armistice >>>>>>> Hailstorm. Speaking as a VS, I'd be hard pressed to take the Eridani over the Sirius. I just don't see the point.

The Armistice is the TR's unique flavor SMG to the NC's Cyclone, but the Armistice lacks the gentler recoil of the Cyclone even with a foregrip, and those built in extra 5 rounds don't really amount to jack. If it had 35 by default, it'd be more appreciable. So basically we're looking at a gun that has slightly slower killing rates than the Cyclone, but it's overall worse. The whole "CQC = RPM" argument has SOME merit, but it's negligible, especially when half a second spent with the crosshair off target means missing half of your already tiny BB filled magazine. Didn't think of that, did'ja?

And then there's the hailstorm, which has absolutely zero redeeming qualities. It doesn't have the RPM, the damage, model, the muzzle velocity, or even the accuracy (it has slightly less recoil jitter than the Armistice.) In fact, it's pretty much worse than the Armistice in every single way, except, that it comes with 30 more rounds, or 10 more compared to the Sirius or Blitz... which are better everywhere else overall to compensate.

So yeah, long story short - Keep the Cyclone, Blitz and Sirius where they are, justify the Eridani's existence as something worth using over the Sirius, buff the Armistice to kind of actually match the Cyclone, and turn the Hailstorm into a gun.

You are right about the 4% dps, which is the only substantial reason to go for it. But velocity? That's 330m/s to suppressed PDW's 320m/s, the damage range would be 18m to the MKV's 15m, much better damage fall-off pattern for the PDW, though that last point doesn't matter so much given effective range. Better yet, you can may-suppress the PDW.
In terms of velocity as long as a difference is inferior to 50~60m/s, it's not really noticeable from my experience.

I wouldn't use compensator on smgs, especially one so stable as the PDW! Either ext.mags or grip for me, on both of them. In my opinion, the fixed barrel attachment this is just a limitation uncompensated for on the MKV. Finally, as you say so yourself, the bias is rather indifferent with a little experience.

So yes, 4% better dps and better TTK within 15m, and that's that.