"air is OP"

I usually make an ESF smoke by firing (and hitting) from an angle which can give me time to survive. It's up to a player to use the gray matter inside his head. Oh, I dislike Lolpod farming. I don't think it's fair. But I also know that one can deal quite some damage to a farming ESF.

It's funny that in a team-based game people can't take 3 LMGs and destroy an ESF in seconds. What is not funny - what is sad, is that average IQ of players today is too damn low. We have a game tailored towards useless beings.

Yeah, which actually requires a newb to have at least some brains left in his head and maybe check VR before going LIVE or watch a tutorial.

I know right... if something is hard and requires learning - it's inaccessible - nerf it or call people doing it ******** nerds who have played since Beta and should be shamed for it.

I haven't checked, but isnt this one of the items they nearly tripled in price in the new price "reductions" ?

Most of the better ESF pilots won't care that they are taking minimal damage from your LMG, they will simply adjust their aim, and let off a few rockets. Yes, you can damage an ESF with a LMG, but not reliably - the effective engagement range of an ESF is significantly higher then any LMG. There's nothing wrong with getting blown away by an ESF - sure, it can get annoying, but sneezing at an ESF at ~150-200 meters with an LMG is the fastest way to attract rocketpods.

Wait, you're expecting a complete noob to know how to use teamwork effectively, and coordinate with others in the area? In the same breath, you claim that the average player is an idiot? I don't blame new players for not knowing how to play, it's what they do with the information at hand that really matters, and whether or not they learn from their experiences.

To extend my previous point, the problem is that most new players I run into don't even know that the VR exists - it isn't advertised, and tutorials don't even start until the VR is entered. Ginormous flashing arrows and popups to the affect of "Try the VR to play with everything!" would be a good step in helping newbies get a handle on things. Players should not have to look OUTside the game to learn how to play it on a basic level. Youtube tutorials are all well and good, but a well designed in-game tutorial should get you started. Currently, it does not.

The primary thing getting in new players' way of learning to fly, is the reverse maneuver. A bit of a fun fact: The Reverse Maneuver existing is actually a bug - it existed in beta, and was slated for being fixed. There was enough of an outcry from the sky knights of the time that it was left in. It is documented exactly nowhere in game that I have found (3000 ish hours playtime now) and it's obnoxious to pull off.

Personally, I can fly fairly well - but the time investment involved in learning to do so was disproportionate to learning how to do everything else in the game combined (Again, my personal experience.) - AA exists, and is more then sufficient to counter almost any air threat without having to hop into a cockpit - that's not the problem.

The problem is that a physics quirk, undocumented (in game) is a VITAL skill to master to be able to fly a ESF with any expectation of success. It has nothing to do with shaming players, old or new - It is a failure on the part of SOE / Daybreak to correct either the flight controls, or the availability of instruction on how to master something that was not intended to be in the game in the first place.

Good pilots have no lives? Good pilots use lagswitching/hacking programs? Its very easy to blame other factors when only problem is you being total NOOB.
Every good pilot took an effort to get into the airgame and the giant amount of lock ons and people sitting in AA turrets for whole hours made it even harder.
Oh, and to the Skyguard vs Lib: aiming with tank buster is so hard and unforgiving, that i suggest you (skyguard peasant) should try for yourself. With the Skyguard, you dont even need to directly hit your target, you can move your cannon to different angles, while lib can adjust their aim only slightly to left or right.
Some of your guys excuses to "why i dont fly" are so bad that you should think twice before you post them.

Except for the reverse maneuver planetside dogfighting is basicly heli fighting with some extra agility. Nothing hard to understand. And reverse maneuver is basicly slowing down and turning inwards. While you are at it ban battlefield players from doing scissors maneuvers because newbs don't know about it ^^ Its op nerf it nerf it. Oops wron forums. But I agree more tutorials would be nice not just for the airgame but the whole game

I am one of better pilots. I am also one of better infantry. It's uncommon for me to make a PRO farmer retreat. It's called aiming and leading. Skills one can practice whenever one wants. ESF hovering 150-200 meters away is not at effective farming range and is at high risk being high in the open to enemy ESFs. Also if one fires at ESF at such range when ESF in fact attacks your location, one is a r etard. Also one is a r etard when his spawnroom is obliterated and one keeps trying to get a farmer down and then cries on a forum about his inability to do so.

Getting on smoke is NOT minimal damage.

When I see a million reasons for something not to be done ["firing firearms at ESF is useless"] it's clear

No, I don't expects noobs to know how to play. I leave it to experienced players. Unfortunately most of players nowadays are simply bad and have problems with basics.

That's correct. However newbie shouldn't be a 5-year old kid who lacks any discovery skills. Just saying...

I keep hearing this non sense. Source? Gotta ask, did you have ANY KIND of physics in school?

Can't see holding 3 buttons as obnoxious.

Getting into airgame is ofcourse not easy. Not at all.

To RM - again, it behaves by SIMPLE laws. SIMPLE physics. Yes, hover mode is VITAL in airgame. In BF3 speed control was a vital skill. There is always a vital skill. Something that defines the gameplay. To remove hovermode, would be to make PS2 airgame much dumber (without new physics additions) and to make it a very dumbed version of a classic stereotype air batlles. Why one would want every game to be the same is only because of one's laziness.

Cezinov these Ideas are beautiful. Let's just remove scissors ,horizontal loops ,vertical loops because it's too obnoxious to turn.Why is aircraft even flying it should swim

Joke aside I hate people saying that pilots are no lifers. I have less time in game than many of you have just in forums.

Not to worry, though. With the 100 certs per level, a new character can actually purchase it earlier than before.

When it was 250, a new player had to wait until halfway after BR11 to purchase it, and it would require all of the certs they had earned up to that point.

Now that it is 650, you can purchase it at BR7 with the complimentary 100 certs every new-character-level. (A new player can actually get it slightly before BR7; but, if they wait, he can also keep the normal 69 certs earned by experience, plus 50 new-character-level certs.)

Mega wall of text warning.

Congratulations. Your sarcasm gland is apparently fully intact, as is mine. Now that this has been established, we can continue.

I listed two. Two main reasons.
1: You won't do much damage at extreme range
(Yes, the ones that get in low and stay there will be set on fire, i'm talking about the ones that know enough to maintain their distance, and let rockets fly. Yes, leading targets is helpful, and yes, I call "smoking" minimal damage in an ESF with fire suppression and / or NAR. Recovery takes only a few seconds, and the target is still just as dead. If you have multiple firing at once, the ESF will be in trouble. Once again, I'm referring to one person. Seeing multiple people coordinate fire in this manner isn't all that common. When they do, it's a beautiful sight.

2: You attract the ESF's attention.
IF they aren't already firing at you, opening fire on an ESF that may or may not have seen you will make you a priority target. If you assume they are flying low, say... 50 meters, and slowly enough to fire on easily - they still have ample time to turn, obliterate you, and drift off at their leisure. Yes, if it's firing at you, returning fire is preferable to standing there and letting them collect their kill.

Why yes, experienced players do tend to be experienced. "Bad" is a relative term. I would tend to agree with the statement, but not the sentiment. To clarify my point - I believe that information is not readily enough available in game.

Yes, people who want to play games should be able to learn how to do so. I grew up in the age of NES, when almost all game mechanics had to be discovered through the player's own patience and frustration. That said - this is the age of limited attention spans - if something is too difficult to get into, people move on. I would prefer that the game be made more accessible through instruction, tutorials, and intuitive controls.

A source? I thought it was fairly common knowledge, and my intent was to remind people this, but sure. The best source was in the now-removed vehicle forums, but I located a few old pieces of info for you, including the original discovery thread, or one of them, at least.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1jisnt/soe_plans_to_nerf_esf_reverse_maneuver/ (Petition, asking for it to be left in)
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=49545 (Some basic background info)
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/test-patch-notes-8-1-2013.144413/ (Where they initially neutered the reverse maneuver on test, in preparation for removing it entirely.)

(Another fun fact, you used to be able to do the Reverse Maneuver quite effectively in the galaxy, with the nose down, and there were a few methods through which an ESF could fly backwards indefinitely - the current incarnation of the Reverse Maneuver is a shadow of what it was when it was discovered. It has since been effectively removed from all airframes except for the ESF, at the community's demand. Just google "Reverse maneuver planetside 2 2012" and 2013 - there are too many good ones to link here.)

As for your physics question - Yes. I will say that while I am not an Aeronautics Engineer, I am a Software Engineer currently working with flight control physics for real life fighter aircraft for training simulation. I took a number of physics courses, and Calculus up to Calc III. ( Would you like to know how gravity affects oranges on mars during a tornado? I can probably help with that. Horray for useless factoids. Go go gadget american education system. ) It is absolutely nothing like Planetside 2, obviously, but I have enough of a comprehension of the physics involved to know that I would have to see Daybreak's codebase to be able to make any sort of specific suggestion on tweaking their physics models.

That said, I never said I supported changing the Reverse Maneuver - that's one option, but there are a number of better methods. Adding in a "reverse thrust" button that uses boost fuel much faster then the current boost. All this would involve is the addition of one control, and some minor thrust coefficient tweaking. The current flight physics wouldn't have to be changed in the slightest, and with careful implementation, the current Reverse Maneuver could even remain superior to the 'fly backwards' button, while still giving new players enough of a chance to compete.

Another option would be for Daybreak to ask a number of pilots to make training videos, then feature them on the launcher in huge, glowing letters. They could even make a contest for it - the tutorial with the highest number of +1's wins a pile of DB coins.

It isn't the number of buttons, it's the timing and positioning involved. Doing it in combat at the right time adds another level of complexity.

No it is not. I'm glad we agree. My point is that it could be made much easier through a number of actions on Daybreak's part. Not all of the ways they could address this involve nerfs. One of the current measures taken to make the air game more accessible, is A2A lockons, which were introduced roughly around when the community shot down the impending reverse maneuver mega-nerf. I would say that a 'fly backwards' button is a better fix then a 'mouseover and click' explosive lockon, but that's me.

Not once did I suggest the removal of hovermode. Hovering is part of Planetside 2's airgame - knowing when to do so, and for how long adds significant complexity, as does angle of approach, when to use boost, and so the list goes on. Depending on how the physics model is set up, removing the reverse maneuver may be as simple as taking the center of the aircraft, determining whether or not it is facing forwards, calculating whether or not the airframe is moving in reverse, and applying forward thrust in situations where reverse velocity has been maintained for x time. (This probably hasn't been done due to jarring movement, but the general concept is sound.)

Alternately, as I described, just add a button where you use the current boost pool to apply reverse thrust at an increased rate of fuel consumption.

TL;DR - Abandon all hope, ye who came here hoping for a summary.

I tried flying a few times and was reduced to a smelly pile of ashes. I'll leave it to those better than I to fly the friendly skies. Besides I'm a firm believer in Terra Firma. The firmer the less terror.

There is something simple against reverse and hover meta.

Speed frame coyote close gap go through and unload when you come side by side.
Like this coytote lock and can't be avoid.
They can't follow and keep angle.
Repeat two times.
You can be bad and win against average hover pilot with that.
It's more true for mossi with high speed.
You don't need to aim you can stay with external view.

When players say air is OP, I think they really mean it is OP against ground, and not OP in general. Usually when something is classified as OP, it implies that it is so overpowered, that almost anyone can use it and do well. MAXes are pretty OP in that sense, as all you need is AI weapons on each slot, and almost anyone can rack up the kills. Granted, that may be a generalization, but describing a MAX suit as being OP would be a fair assessment in that regard. This is balanced out due to MAXes costing resources.

As far as air being op, I just don't see it in the same sense. A BR 1 fresh out of boot camp player can load into an ESF, however, he/she will probably die very quickly. I would say that generally it takes up to around BR 15-20 to just get the hang of maneuvering an ESF, and maybe to about BR 45-50 before they start racking up kills. Again, that is a generalization and will be different for every player. My point is, just launching an ESF by itself does not mean you will be pillaging villages or clearing the skies solo. It still takes time, effort, and aim before you are a flying ball of death. To me, that doesn't scream "OP", that just screams "skill".

For comparison, a game like Counter-Strike (mostly GO), the AWP is considered the most OP weapon on the game. It is a one shot kill anywhere on the body minus the feet, then it is a two shot kill. Even with armor. You could argue that anyone wielding the AWP is pretty much going to win any engagement. And on paper, that is sound. However, in reality, even though that Silver 1 player is going to aim that AWP down mid on Dust 2 and get a kill here and there...they will be missing flick shots, wall bangs, 360 no scopes, etc like there is no tomorrow. Put it in the hands of a pro (KennyS) and yeah...it's game over.

TLDR: Air comes across as OP when it is behind the hands of someone who knows how to use it. But that can be said about anything. Put an ESF in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it... and if they can rack up kills like any other Sky Knight, then yeah...DBG needs to tune it. As of right now, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Too many people confusing actual skill with the actual power of an ESF. In order to use an ESF to the point where someone could call you "OP", you need a lot of skill. No random BR 5 is going to jump an ESF and start dominated the ground or skies, unless it is just vet's alt.

It takes a lot of coordination to be able to fly an ESF normally. It takes even more to actually target grounds units. It takes EVEN MORE to fight A2A.

ESFs are fine.

In my view, anything that can be damage by small arms is not armor

It's ok

I wasn't being sarcastic, mate. Honest actually.

I don't think lolpodding is fair. I'm just saying there is a way to defend against them at least somehow. Also getting a little squad together may really spoil Farmer's life.

Yes, one need to be sneaky, careful and strategic. Otherwise one's screwed.

It's not. Created a search function for a database manual would be nice.

I still didn't see devs saying it's a bug. They nerfed because some people would cry endlessly

Sorry then, I now see your stand point clearly.

I see. Well, it's not a bad idea.

Speaking of tutorials - there is enough on Youtube. I even think the links to them are added somewhere ingame because I certainly recall seeing them in some menu... not sure tho.

Aside from lok-ons being easily countered by flares, thoose early 650 certs are better spend on a class skill and/or suit slot.

Yes, even I agree with this. It is important to point out that you can acquire the A2A launcher earlier, however, because the crux of many recent arguments is that not being able to afford a cheap A2A launcher would negatively affect new players against Air.

Anyway, I don't even have the TR's A2A launcher. I bought a second Burster and never looked back.

Agreed.
However this fails to address my scenario.
What does a BR1 fresh off the character creation screen do when ESFs come to play?
They die is the short answer.

Im not saying air is OP, not at all, i was just contesting the comment that was made about every soldier having access to AA at all times, it is clearly a false statement.

ok lets have a look and see if this is effective shall we.
ESF health 3000
Resistance to small arms 75%
Ill be generous and say Gauss SAW being used
Its extremely unlikely an ESF will be engageing at the max damage range of 10m so ill use the min damage of 167 @ 85m.

167 * 25%
41.75 damage per shot
3000 / 41.75
71.856 shots to kill the ESF
@ 500 RPM (8.333 RPS)
8.623 seconds to kill the ESF at that range.

M18 needler (random ESF weapon choice) does 200 damage out to 200m
with an RPM of 750 (12.5 RPS) a mossy can deal 1000 damage to the infantry in 0.40 seconds.

Heck the splash damage alone on rocket pods would kill an infantry in just over a second.


That being said, i think its perfectly fine for an ESF to be able to do that, but as my scenario first asked, how can a fresh BR1 effectively engage an ESF, well i think the answer is pretty much, they cant.

Is even harder to get into the airgame now that there is continent locking. Ive clocked countless hours learning to fly in quiet continents. I feel sorry for players new to flying trying to fly now, there is not much opportunity to learn when there is so much AA and ace pilots everywhere.