[Suggestion] Class Roles Redefined - Part 2 (New class abilities and some C4 removal)

This is a continuation of an idea from this thread -> https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps...tank-cost-to-600-nanites.227092/#post-3198833 . Writing that made me realize classes need even more defining qualities.

I think that each and every class should be unique and offer something that no other class can match.
Each class should be centered around one defining characteristic and every ability and piece of gear they get access to should enhance and support this defining characteristic.

Currently I think that some of the equipment bleeds between class roles and the roles themselves aren’t distinctive enough. This thread introduces new abilities and a restructuring of the class roles.
These are just ideas, not concrete mechanics that should be added “as-is”. Some of these have been suggested before but I’m including everything.


INFILTRATOR
Core Mechanics: Cloaking, Recon & Anti-Infantry

UAV – auto-spots targets that it can only see with line of sight for a limited time. Targets obstructed behind objects or terrain cannot be spotted

Seismic Sensor – detects vibrations in the ground from approaching vehicles for a limited time. Works up to (500?) meters.

EMP grenade (expanded ability) – the EMP blast now disables vehicle weapon systems for a short time
Portable Cloaking Generator – a small portable cloaking field that can be deployed for a limited time until the batteries run out, hiding all units inside the field. Field radius set at 5-10 meters


LIGHT ASSAULT
Core Mechanics: Jump Jets, Fast Attack, Superior Mobility & Anti-Infantry

Micro Jump Jets – lets the player jump a great distance (50-100 meters?) with a safefall mechanic. Allows rapid movement around a base for fast attacking/defending flag or other points of interest. Does not replace normal jump jets, but has its own recharge bar that recharges much slower

Portable Teleporter – placed at two locations, allowing rapid troop movement between the two pads. The LA’s jump jets allow it to place the pad in locations that are obscure and hard to reach

Portable Jump Pad – allows soldiers to boost over tall objects and terrain

Flashbang Grenade (expanded ability) – two grenades are now carried by default

**C4 would be removed from the Light Assault class**


MEDIC
Core Mechanics: Corpsman, Soldier Revival & Anti-Infantry

Portable Triage Unit (PTU) – area effect healing aura that can be placed on the ground. Heals for a limited amount until the batteries are drained dry

Medical Applicator Virus Needle (expanded ability) – alternate mode of the applicator allows the medic to infect an enemy soldier with a virus. When the soldier dies, the virus spreads to the respawning unit (spawn tube, Sunderer, Galaxy) and any soldier spawning from that respawn unit is also infected.
The virus blocks any hp regen ability (biolab or implant) but does not stop healing from the PTU or the medic’s own personal healing aura. The shield recharge timer is also increased by (X) seconds, where X is increased by the rank of the ability

Medical Applicator Antidote Needle (expanded ability) – alternate mode of the applicator allows the medic to cure any infected soldier or a respawning unit from enemy viruses

Revival Grenade (expanded ability) – two grenades are now carried by default

**C4 would be removed from the Medic class**


ENGINEER
Core Mechanics: Repair, Demolitions, Anti-tank/MAX support

AA Mana Turret – deploys a personal AA turret for the engineer

Welding Patch – allows the engineer to quickly repair a large chunk of armor on a vehicle or MAX unit. Only one patch can be attached to a vehicle/MAX at any one time, and the patch remains until the unit is destroyed (prevents mass healing from multiple engineers – this ability functions similar to the fire extinguisher on vehicles). (Replace grenades when selected?)


HEAVY ASSAULT
Core Mechanics: Anti-Tank/MAX support & Anti-Infantry

Portable Shield Generator – deploys a damage shield in a small radius for a limited time until the batteries run dry (replace personal shield generator when selected?).
Only one generator can be deployed within a specific radius (50 meters?) to discourage shield stacking (similar to Sunderer deploy bubbles)

Anti-Material Rifle – (being added from PTS in future patch)


MAX UNIT
Core Mechanics: Anti-Tank/MAX support & Anti-Infantry

Jump Pistons – lets the MAX jump over large/tall objects. Has a recharge timer

Sprint Mode (reworked ability) – instead of a small dash across a short distance, this enables the MAX to enter a sprinting configuration. Weapons are disabled in this mode, and there is a small delay entering or exiting the mode. Weapons cannot be used until the exiting the mode is complete

Carry Harness – lets 1 soldier travel with the max while it’s in sprint mode or using jump pistons. Allows small squads to transport soldiers over impassible terrain/objects or cover large distances quickly while keeping the MAX units and softer infantry together as a unit while travelling

I can't get behind any idea that intends to speciate the classes into overly specialized roles. Each class already has specific abilities that are unique. There is no reason to specialize them further.

You just generalized my entire post without actually reading what I suggested.
Adding a UAV to the infiltrator doesn't over specialize it, or adding a vehicle weapon disable to the EMP grenade.

In the other thread you said C4 removal would narrow the scope of certain classes.
I suggest mechanics that center towards the focus of the class and now they're over specialized?

This is a much better post and has some interesting ideas. Unfortunately, most of your best ideas require the creation and implementation of new mechanics and stuff which, under the current circumstances, seems unlikely. That said, you still have quite a bit of overload on some classes, particularly (as always) HA and MAX.

I like pretty much all your Infiltrator ideas.

I think the microjets on LA are unnecessary, and would prefer to see a permanent move speed buff (something like Adrenaline Pump being always-on, without needing a slot). The portable teleporter idea is great and similar to (but better than, imho) Planetside 1's Router. The portable jumppad is also pretty good. These both should have LONG, like 5 min cooldowns to prevent exploitation, as well as placement restrictions to prevent too much overlap/spammage. Flashbang boost is nice, but should be a choice, and again, I disagree with your removal of C4 completely.

On medics, I like the healy-unit thingy. Kind of like the shield thing, except for health. Would need quite a lot of tweaking and limitations to prevent OPness though. Don't see much point to the virus thing. Most passive regen is of limited use (esp. in larger fights), so to me this would be nothing more than an annoyance, rather than a useful mechanic. Regen nade boost is nice, but again, what's with your hatred of C4? It's really not as useful as you think.

On engineer, I like the AA turret, and have proposed it myself. I dislike your welding patch idea though. Far too easy for an engy driving a tank to hop out, patch, hop back in. Fire Suppression is obnoxious enough, without people having the ability to double-team them!

On HA, no, no, NO, NO, NO!! Seriously... what's with your hardon for HA? It's already probably the most all-round powerful infantry class. It doesn't need any more boosts. Leave the rifle on the engy, and the shield on the medic. If anything, the rocket launcher should be an engy choice (replacing the turret) as well!

On MAX's... People in PS1 hated the VS MAX's for their mobility. If something like your jump pistons comes in, it should only be at a substantial durability and DPS penalty. Sprint mode is interesting but, to be honest, is largely made necessary only by redeployside. If proper logistics were being used, you could easily get a transport from place to place. So no, on this one too. Carry harness is amusing, but I think it's largely unnecessary. If you're moving long distances, you should probably be doing it in vehicles anyway, or stick to running speed. Again, no.

Don't have a hard on for any class. Just wanted to post at least one idea for heavy. But I agree it could be left alone.
As for C4, I already previously explained why medics and LA shouldn't have it, in my opinion. Doesn't fit with the class role.

*edit*
I also thought the HA was getting the AMR by default? That's the only reason I put it there.
If it's engineer I'm fine with that too

I didn't over generalize, in fact I highlighted precisely what I objected to. You said, and I quote, that every class should be defined around one characteristic.

I disagree. Completely. That would over specialize the classes.

Changing the repair mechanic to what you suggest sounds terrible, IMO. I like most of the other ideas, though.

Regardless, that one statement does not define the entirety of what he just.

Secondly, where do you get this basis of over-specialization? By what standard?

The standard is PlanetSide 1. In that game your class defined a few very specific parameters. It defined how much inventory you could carry, what weapons would be available to you, and the type of armor you wore. That was really about it. How you played a class was completely up to you. Your loadout was whatever you wanted it to be within those parameters Your "role" was not "defined" by a specific ability.

That's the standard.

PlanetSide is differentiated from games like Team Fortress and MMOs like World of Warcraft in that the classes are much more generalized. In WoW--and similar games--you cannot play outside your class. In PlanetSide 2, however, you can. That's what makes this game different, and that's what I don't want to see gone.

Defining a class around specific abilities would kill that generalization.

The problem with this is people will just lean even more towards just picking HA every single time.

I need to fight veichles and infantry??. Better grab HA

That is nonsense.

The standard is whatever the SOE/DBG wills it to be. PS2 was/is literally recreation of PS1(Which for all intents and purposes, is just another way of saying this is a do-over). PS1 is moot.

I don't think you read the post at all, but I still think you get the problem with PS2: classes can do everything. Quite literally, THE only thing that was taken away in his suggestion was the LA's and Medic's ability to use C4. Yet he expanded their abilities beyond what they currently do, making them actually diverse, and potentially more meaningful to new players and veterans alike.

DBG has said explicitly that every non-MAX class and excluding the heavy as well, will get access to the new NS AMR.

And now you understand why I disagree with the OP, and with you. I think it's a very good thing that the classes can do a wide variety of things. That's not a problem, that's an asset.

I read the post very well, actually. I disagree with it completely.

As for PlanetSide 1 being the standard, it is. That's not nonsense. That's a fact. The game was ground breaking, and is fundamentally different from other games because of the versatility of the classes. PlanetSide 2--if the developers are smart--will adhere to that standard. Yeah, the CoD kiddies will be mad about it. Let them play CoD. I play PlanetSide.

Then you understand why it is STILL silly I take it? If classes can do everything why have them? The point of classes is, was, and always will be, specializations for specific roles. There is no "player choice" factored when you play the class. Your choice began and ended when you decided what class to play and your loadout, now its still time use the class specifics. Running around with guns are just the means to an end.

It isn't silly. Just because you have classes doesn't mean they must be strictly segregated into specific roles that cannot be overlapped. That's... those other games... not PlanetSide.

In this game we have a good amount of role redundancy, which is a VERY GOOD THING. Engineers aren't built around their auto-turrets, or their nanite tools. Medics aren't squishy healers. Heavies aren't lumbering tanky things that have low damage output. Infiltrators aren't "rogues."

Yet, these classes do have things that only they can do. Why shouldn't these classes be further specialized and stratified? Because the game would suck, that's why. People who play this game play this game because it is a combined arms game. There are very few of these games out there, and this game is the best of them.

Combined arms means that infantry and vehicles are on the same battlefield. It means that each class can hold its own in a fight, and STILL perform their class roles.

That's not silly. That's unique game design. No other game in the world--especially not other FPS games--are like PlanetSide. This game stands alone for this reason.

The question you should ask yourself is: Why would you want to make this game like the rest of them?

He didn't say the classes had to be straight weaker. Those are your words and assumptions, not his.

Stratified? They are classes, are they not? 'Combined arms' does not dictate that classes have to use everything and anything; the resources and equipment they have access to and how they use them is the judge of that. PS2 does all of that nicely. As I said before and I'll say it again, the op's suggestions add to the classes' skill sets and make them play more like classes. PS2 stands alone as an MMO because it combines both persistent world and first-person-combat. To chagrin of the MMOFPS genre, it's something many pathetic F2P cash-grab, lobby-based, FPS games like Combat Arms and AVA tend to call themselves. That is why it is unique. However, it is ONLY a matter of time, until another publisher or studio steps into PS2's territory, and only the years of updates, fleshed-out content, and balancing, will keep it on top.

This game IS like the rest of them, somewhat. For example, the only thing that separates an engineer from a medic is his turret and repair tool. You can count that on your hand, as is any class comparison as the game currently stands. When you combine that with the decline of some of its player base due to being "burnt-out", access to 4 continents(3 for the longest time(exaggeration)), and no meaning to conquering territory(they have somewhat rectified this with continent-locking), you can see why the classes "aren't enough".

Nor did I say they had to be "weaker" or would be "weaker." In fact, the word "weak" doesn't appear anywhere in any post I've made to this thread. So, no, those aren't my words.... those are your words. We have a term for that. We call it a straw man.

They are classes, but they aren't as strictly defined like the classes in other games. And, yes, combined arms does in fact mean that classes should be able to do more, not less.

If this weren't combined arms--read: if there were no unregulated vehicles in this game--then yes, we could have more stratified and specialized classes. However, the presence of unregulated vehicles means that there must be an appropriate level of threat to those vehicles.

What do I mean by "unregulated vehicles?" PlanetSide isn't the first FPS with vehicles in it, but, it is the first--and only--FPS with freely available and uncapped vehicles. In other words, Tribes had vehicles, but there was a strict limit to the number of vehicles in play at any time. If there were too many of one type of vehicle and you went to spawn another, you were you sh** out of luck. Halo has vehicles in its multiplayer, but there are only limited numbers of them available. If you're not on one, then you don't get one.

PlanetSide is different. There is no limit to the number of vehicles that can be in play at any given moment. Each and every player with sufficient nanites can pull a vehicle--any vehicle--of their choice. The only limit imposed is on each individual player's accrual of resources. Otherwise, there is no limit.

That openness requires that players should have more anti-vehicle options available to them, which further compounds a pervasive balance problem. Specializing each class around specific class abilities would throw that balance off. Basically, if we built the game the way the OP suggests, everyone would play Heavy Assault, because that would be the most versatile option.

This is, of course, already a problem. We already see Heavy Assault as the most widely played class, and here is a thread with the numbers to prove it. This is why the AMR (anti-material rifle) is not going to be an Infiltrator exclusive weapon, because the game needs infantry redundancy, not infantry specialization.

The infantry game cannot be--and must not be--a game of rock/paper/scissors. Hard counters are uncreative and lazy design features. This game thrives on soft-counters, and redundancy.

And not upvoted.

What I suggested doesn't turn the "infantry game" into rock, paper, or scissors.

There is only one thing I suggested to be removed from two classes, which is C4. I suggested this to take away the ability for a light assault and a medic to single handedly kill a main battle tank in one blow.
Infantry vs tanks does not constitute the entire "infantry game". It is a very, very small part that hardly suffers from the removal of C4 of two classes that aren't even designed to combat against heavy armor.

And in place of this one thing, I suggested a number of added abilities that enhance what the class already does. You said you're entirely against my entire post.
Why would you be entirely against adding variety and options to classes? 99% of the post adds to the game, not subtracting from it.

I'm suggesting ideas to make the game fresh and exciting. I would love to micro jump with an LA as a squad clear across a base to secure a point as a rapid response team.
I would place seismic sensors everywhere I could to warn friendlies about incoming armor so defenses could be prepared.

These ideas do not turn the game into rock-paper-scissors. They enhance what is already there.
So far I haven't seen you make an argument against any single suggestion I made and explain why that single suggestion creates a "hard counter" and turns the game into RPS.

You're just lumping everything into "it's too specialized...I don't like it".
Ok. Explain why my suggestions are too specialized. Specifically. But please stop making the same over generalizing argument and rephrasing it a little differently every time without actually explaining in depth why these ideas are bad for the game, in your opinion.

I understand a lot of people like C4 on the LA and use it constantly, but if the LA suggestions I made above went live it would give LA players a lot more to do then just float over tanks and infantry and drop C4 like rain.

I rarely see players using the LA class to actually gain advantages over structures and terrain to flank a fighting force.
The majority of the time I just see them floating towards tanks and sunderers holding blocks of C4.
That's what the LA class has become, a light demolitions unit.

Your argument, again, only holds on the small thread of contingency that is as long as the op that feels that the medic and LA should have their C4, and that's not much worth arguing for/against. PS1 had vehicles because it was the among the first of its kind(FPSs period) to have vehicles. Back in those days vehicles were in their infancy. That era includes Halo1, UT2k3/4, and Farcry to name a few. As such, there was new uncharted possibilities of gaming opened and yet to be found. Capped vehicles just what they thought(or assumed) was balanced. Redundancy isn't the issue.

As we stand, people only play LA, when they want to scale buildings to blow something up, because "that's all their good for". People play Medic when they want to revive and heal others because "that's all their good for". People play Infiltrator to snipe, contest cap points unseen, and wreck havoc amongst an enemy zerg unseen, because "that's all their good for". People play Engineer when they want to distribute ammo, repair vehicles and MAXes, and place turrets, because "that's all their good for". People play Heavy when they want to soak and mitigate damage while dishing it at the same time, because "I want to kill people faster". This is why, by large, the PS2 community on classes. DBG can either cater to this crowd(which is pointless), or making playing other classes more "meaningful" in that you can do more with the class specifics. Meanwhile, possibly retaining the option of adding more means of combating vehicles because we've been stuck with the same choices for quite some time. Classes in this game are shallow in options at best, but they still play well at least.