[Vehicle] ESF hover mechanic. How it should actually work.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Kristan, May 25, 2015.

  1. Alan Kalane

    Aaight, we may try that right now. Get on Miller and grab your ESF. If you can manage to beat me while I'm on your tail without using the reverse manuever I'll give you a cookie.

    It is completely impossible to beat a semi-experienced pilot once he is on your tail without using the reverse manuever. If you just fly in a straight line then you're an easy target for his nosegun and if you try doing evasive manuevers you will never escape him unless you can reach the WG in time. You could "use terrain" to your hearts content and it wouldn't help you because while you risk your life doing dangerous stuff like facehugging that cliff I could just fly right above it and get on your tail again.

    It works in other games like World of Warplanes because the game mechanics in those games are focused on air combat but in PS2 there are no such mechanics.

    In other words without the RM you're dead meat once someone gets on your tail unless there's someone to rescue you. Sounds fun? It doesn't to me, I like to know that even if the enemy pilot has an obvious advantage I can still fight back and perhaps even take him down.
  2. Kristan

    Okay, I see your point there. But ain't that situation when chosen airframe should matter? I know we both could fly dogfighting airframe, so it only depends on skill and who got on the tail first. And it also depends on what do you use for flying, mouse + keyboard or joystick. Because with joystick I can pull crazy **** evasive maneuvers.
  3. Ulas

    dogfights don't happen at high speeds like 2 Mach. They usually occur in slower speeds
  4. Czarinov

    Yeah, that's correct. Exactly. Aiming and evading are 2 GREAT skill parts. Let me point you to my post:

    That's a lot of stuff to learn / think about. Also realize - War Thunder's leading is much simpler than PS2. Bullets INHERIT your velocity. Your brain doesn't have to think about where you flying and how fast. Instead you only analyze your VISUAL relative movement towards the enemy.

    In PS2 you have to know where you are flying, how fast and compare it to visual information. Of course it's hard to do consciously, but your brain must create many more muscle memory schemes compared to War Thunder aiming.

    You described a lot of interesting effects in War Thunder. Some of them I think would only harm PS2 and some would be more fun.

    However none of what Hover fighting brings to PS2 is in War Thunder. None of it. Hover fighting (and all of the rest of airgame, because it's connected to it) is a highly skilled gameplay.

    I won't say it's more skilled than War Thunder. Because it's simply different.

    As I see it, with your description (thanks for it by the way) you only actually have pointed out that PS2 airgame COULD be improved by NOT nerfing actual mechanics, but ADDING to it. This is what a reasoned conclusion should be.

    Anyway, OP here is a moron, an ignorant, a lazy nublet who can't even check stats. Who places his personal opinion (pulled out of his behind ofc) above others. You must agree with me on this. He clearly stated in this thread, that Hover waltzing (how he calls it) is a no-skill no-leading mechanic.

    NO SKILL, NO LEADING.

    1) The first claim could only be said by an uber PRO who reks everyone. And even then such a person would be looked at as a total r3tard.

    2) The second claim could only be said by someone who NEVER flew an ESF. Which he must have, otherwise he would not hate it. And so it's clear, OP has been playing dumb, he's just a troll. After the discussion it's clear, that OP is a irrational low life and deserves no respect. By the way, this applies to his real life too.

    PS all this time there was NO discussion actually.

    PPS so it's not about if we agree on the quality or fun of game mechanics, it's about agreeing on rationality and ability to deduct. Thus agreeing on the fact OP is a r3tard.
  5. Yessme

    u really do the same, like the Host of that thread, u ignore 50-75% or that Game....

    Sure we have flak based Weapongs, but we have Lock on too?, u ignored the 50% of AA + we have A2A locks.
    60 KPH is really much Speed for a Tank in an bad Terrain, Try to race with the Abraham or the Leopard on a Terrain with cliffs ur 60KPH, i will see how Long u do it...
    Leopard2 was one of the fastet Tank, and he make 80 KM/H on a good Street, but he can`t hold this on the Terrain.
    On bad Terrain an actuall Tank, can move with 40-50 KM/H and thats much fast.
    TR use gunpowder sure but u ignore the Fracture, thats the Story of that thread,.

    fastet Helicopter to time Name is : Eurocopter X3, he make 472 Km/h
    fastet Air in WW2 : Messerschmitt Me 163 „Komet“ he make 1003,67

    u see in WW2 we brocke the Sound too, there is nothing like ww2
    u guys just ignore most part of that game
  6. Teshrrar


    No, friend, I'm no saying PS2 in losing players only because air game, but air game is indeed a big part of it, because I remember in 2012 how a big number of players was gravitating. We had so many air unities in Jaegar that air wasn't even a problem to ground. Air was a particular battle, almost never interfering with ground. Today we have so few air unities that devs had to create a lot of AA options because hover feature.

    PS2 fail to deliver fun as we see in videos, as we think a combined arm game should be, and deny the horrible air gameplay is deny the number of players falling. I'm not saying all players leaving are air players, but have this option could hold them here, because it is a combined arms game, and when someone start to play a game like that, he/she wait this kind of possibility.

    Hover fight have basicly the same skill as the FPS skill: you have to lead, you have to move, and just it. The fact you can stop in the air and shoot say by itself. Add the super huge nosegun range and you have the game we have: a game with no maneuver. Hover fight say: or you do it, or you die. Opressingly* boring.
    (* that word exist?)

    The airframes worth for nothing and someone using the fire stinguish cert have a large advantage over everyone. Since none of the weapon's wings are capable of work alone, someone not using it, using only nosegun with aditional fuel have advantage too. There's no maneuver which make you a pilot: or you gravitate as everyone else, or you die. This-is-super-boring.

    I have to back to work now, but I hope you understand my point.
  7. Czarinov


    That is simply wrong. I suggest you reread what I posted in my last comment regarding Hover mechanics and aiming, which is at least twice as hard as infantry. Hover maneuvers? There is a handful of them. They are only limited by one's imagination.

    Does your last part "or you do it, or you die" suppose to be an argument? Because, you know, that's the same for infantry and tanking. For any game where killing is involved... Or did you mean there is no OTHER way to fight? But there is. Rushing.

    Unfortunately unless you achieve a decent flying level, you won't know what it consists (same goes for other parts of gameplay).
  8. cbplayer

    **** everything, lets just make the esf flying like this
  9. z1967

    Depends. If they are turning dog fights they are probably sub sonic. Pass based dogfights are likely to be supersonic. Need to look it up though, I think I might be mixing up modern dogfight dogma with something I saw from the Vietnam era demonstrating maneuvers and such.
  10. Scr1nRusher

    How would the game change if the Reverse maneuver bug(yes its actually a bug) was fixed?
  11. Czarinov


    Not a bug. No error in the code. Reverse maneuver is an effect of arcadish but very simple physics laws. Thrust vectoring.
  12. Ulas

    I watched videos about early airgame in planetside. It occured to me that more than hover air was actually really powerful amd ppl were getting big killstreaks. But even without hover it wasnt realistic.
  13. Ulas

    Modern dogfighting dogma is mostly lockons and technology i dont imagine such mechanics being fun in any game. New generation aircraft dont even have a nosegun.
    • Up x 1
  14. Ulas

    Well a lot of pilots already left the game,if it was removed there would be no good pilots left since most would play other games. Then i would add (cezinov) mike on steam and we would do helicopter duels in bf remembering how fun once planetside was. I am actually trying to find clips of helı fights which are similar to hover fighting. And planetside wouldve turned into a inasntry /tanks game before its death.
  15. ColonelChingles

    That's not true. Positioning and maneuvers matter more in Warthunder and are more difficult to pull off due to realistic physics in Warthunder. For example, consider how you would aim at an aircraft who is 30 degrees to your right in PS2. You simply drag your mouse over them. Your ESF responds almost instantaneously in PS2.

    But in Warthunder your aircraft takes time to turn and face where you want it to face. So simply asking dragging your mouse doesn't work in Warthunder... instead you need to predict where the enemy is going to be and figure out a way to "cut them off" on your screen.

    So at a very basic level Warthunder requires more skill and thought. Yes there are skills present in the PS2 airgame, but Warthunder takes each of those skills and raises it to a whole new level.

    Except for skills specific to hovering, Warthunder takes all those requirements and kicks it up a notch.

    Dogfighting movement:
    1) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult because climbing drastically cuts down on velocity, leading to stalls or at the very least greater vulnerability.
    2) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult because of actual physics that realistically model momentum (unlike PS2).
    3) Not applicable in Warthunder because of a lack of a hover mode.
    4) Applies in Warthunder, though is pretty impossible given the higher concentration of enemy aircraft at most times.
    5) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult because ground-based AA is actually lethal.
    6) Applies in Warthunder, except replace hovering with "fly in circles". This makes it more difficult because at the moment of attack you might not be facing the enemy (unlike PS2).
    7) Applies in Warthunder, except that there is an actual fuel requirement and running out of fuel in Warthunder turns your aircraft into a giant glider.

    Dogfighting shooting:
    1) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult due to jamming.
    2) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult due to a very limited ammunition loadout and very long reloads.
    3) Applies in Warthunder, where engagement distances start at 750m. In PS2, this would be like attempting to engage enemy aircraft at near render-range with noseguns. Not only that, but each individual weapon on the aircraft (LMGs, HMGs, cannon) have their own spread and trajectory.
    4) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult due to airplane response times (unlike PS2 where it is instant).
    5) Applies in Warthunder, and is more difficult because you can't turn on a dime and instantly afterburn away. Running away means turning and cutting your velocity for an extended period of time, which can make you very vulnerable.

    So you see, every skill that PS2 requires of its pilots is heavily magnified in Warthunder. There's just no contest.

    Errr... no. If anything, this makes it more difficult because your bullets/shells have variable velocity. That is to say sometimes they can be faster (relative) and other times slower. Not only that, but Warthunder engagements occur out to 750m, which is maybe 3-5 times the usual engagement range of PS2. Doing that close-range stuff in PS2 is ill-advised because that means the margin of error to overshoot your target (and end up nicely in their sights) is far too high.

    Again, not true. Every skill that PS2 asks of its pilots is subject to limitations in Warthunder, making achieving the same thing much more difficult. There's just no comparison of an actual flight sim and PS2, which is essentially your standard WASD layout plus "space" for thrusters. I mean even flying helicopters in the BF series is more difficult, and that's saying something.

    I mean just think about the very simply act of landing. In PS2, you just press "ctrl" to descend (or aim at the ground because you can cut off momentum very quickly), press "s" to decelerate, and everything else is automatic.

    In Warthunder you need to time the distance to the airfield just right, because landing with too fast a velocity will wreck your aircraft (sometimes this involves doing loops to bleed speed). You need to activate your landing/combat flaps to increase air resistance and further bleed speed. Your throttle must be reduced but not too low initially to avoid stalling (something that PS2 pilots never have to worry about). You need to then extend your gear and approach at a proper angle of attack. And finally you need to brake periodically to avoid spinning out.

    That's the difference in skill it takes to do something as simple as landing. PS2 really does heavily oversimplify things to the point where things are relatively easy compared to an actual flight sim.
    • Up x 2
  16. z1967

    The F35 has a 20mm gatling gun in the nose iirc. Last gen fighters like the F-16 definitely have a 20mm in the nose.

    Though good point, modern tech is stand offs and countermeasures. But I doubt they will scrap the nosegun. Don't want another Vietnam debacle where the US's fighters were incapable of fighting the MiGs once they used their missiles.
  17. Ulas

    İ always thought war thunder as a rather easier game. Planetside breaking physics rule aint mean its easy. My reason of plsying this game is its orignal. After 2.5k+ hrs of flying i needed originality. For me planetside has much more prediciting and aim thats new for me. You also need a relatively high reaction time and decent situanionsl awereness(not as much as clasical flying).
  18. Ulas

    I thought it was removed from f35 thanks for clarifiying that.
  19. Czarinov

    Says you.

    Higher range of fight in War Thunder is compensated by higher bullet velocities.

    Different mechanics. Did I tell you I was a dogfighter in BF3? Well I was a heli pilot also.

    different mechanics. Different sets of skills. War Thunder challenges knowledge and planning more, Planetside 2 challenges reflex, very fast thinking and high precision.

    Are you good in War Thunder?

    Why are you bad in Planetside 2?

    ...........

    BTW i find it funny you can direct your flight with mouse only in War Thunder. You just point where you wanna fly. This is like extra arcadish :D

    EDIT:
    Actually in PS2 aiming at such distance is hardcore since it requires huge leading skill (because of no velocity inheritance).
  20. Ulas

    We used to have heli duels which i thought were pretty similar to ps2 airgame. But heli duels only worked on private matches.
    Also where are u dude havent seen u online in a while :/