What should(in your opinion) be the Primary roles of each vehicle & aircraft?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. Scr1nRusher

    This topic is very important for balance going forward.

    I hope to see some good discussion.
    • Up x 1
  2. JudgeNu

    why don't you start it off and give us a nice template?
  3. Flamberge

    ***This is just my opinion. Not saying this is what they were designed for, but this is how they appear to function to me***
    MBT: AV, with moderate AI
    Lightning: Mobility, AV/AA with moderate AI
    Sunderer: Mobile spawn point and support vehicle, moderate AV/AA/AI
    Harasser: Extremely mobile, AI with moderate AV
    ESF: Air superiority fighter, AA with moderate AV/AI
    Galaxy: Ariel infantry transport (high altitude), future support vehicle with the introduction of Ammo/Repair modules). Moderate AA/AI
    Liberator: AV with moderate AA
    Valkyrie: Ariel infantry transport (low altitude), moderate AI
  4. Scr1nRusher


    Alrighty.


    Aircraft:

    ESF = A2A fighter with precision A2G options.

    Liberator = A2G gunship. Useful for taking out large groups.

    Galaxy = Large scale troop transport & Support craft

    Valkyrie = CAS & Squad transport.


    Ground vehicles:


    Lightning = Fast 1 manned tank with a diverse weapons arsenal

    Flash = ATV with flanking usages

    Harasser = Flanking & hit and run specialist with varying roles depending on weapons.

    Sunderer = Troop transport,spawn point & logistical support vehicle that can be outfitted with different weapons for different roles.

    MBT = Anti- Armor specialist that also has deadly AI capabilities against groups of infantry.(Also they should have Coaxial MG's has a passive cert line & the need more types of Tank cannons).

    ES Buggies = Humvee type vehicle.(Troop transport & weapons platform, great for convoy protection)
  5. PKfire

    It's all relative to loadout. Don't pigeonhole base vehicle designs.
  6. Scr1nRusher


    But focusing vehicle designs is extremely important. Not saying that there shouldn't be le-way like as you said with loadouts, but each vehicle & aircraft needs to be/to have a role that they are best at.
    • Up x 1
  7. PKfire

    Then I can assure you this:
    ESFs are definately best equipped for A2A
    Liberator's undoubtedly excel at A2G work

    I can only speak on the subject of air. Air and Skyguards.
  8. Scr1nRusher



    Now, can you explain why?

    Since you have great experience it would be interesting to see your view points.
  9. ColonelChingles


    The problem is that base vehicle designs have many important characteristics which are relevant to a discussion of vehicle roles.

    For example, the Sunderer base vehicle design is that it is heavily armored, travels fairly quickly, and has a huge reservoir of hitpoints. If you have a Sunderer that is meant to deploy and act as a spawn point, then such attributes of the base vehicle design work.

    But when you switch roles and have the Sunderer become a mobile gun truck, then the base vehicle design becomes problematic because it does not mesh with the role.

    The problem exists with the Sunderer because the Sunderer has too many roles for a single vehicle. For other vehicles the base vehicle design may need to be revised because that vehicle exceeds its designated role (ie a A2G unit being too good at A2A).

    Ideally you start with vehicle roles first to avoid the unintentional overlap of vehicle roles, and then create your base vehicle designs to reflect their roles. In that way the vehicle you end up with is narrowly tailored to that specific role.

    If you do the reverse and make a base vehicle design and then try to shoehorn that base vehicle design into different roles, you're likely to discover that the base vehicle design either fails to fit that role (the Valkyrie is a good example) or that the base vehicle design far exceeds that role (the Liberator is a prime example).
    • Up x 2
  10. PKfire

    I'll do my best. *clears throat*

    Aside from the primarily air-centric arsenal, the ESF's greatest ace in the hole is its mobility, and in A2A combat this is everything. The best example (and best advice I could give aspiring pilots) is the gap between the ESFs mobility versus a Liberator. The pilot who realizes they have the upper hand in speed controls the fight, be it pursuit, evasion, or creating distance, the balance will always be in favor of the ESF when engaging opponents of equal skill In a Lib. Their A2G options, on the other hand, pale in comparison to a well coordinated Lib. Even the PPA in its prime. Citing hit and run tactics isn't a good example of speed being a great asset as even a Valkarie is fast enough to pop off some infantry and quickly break LOS of any would-be G2A defenders, as few as there are.

    However, the weapons available to the Liberator are far and wide more effective at A2G work than anything else. The Duster and Zepher are both powerful AI weapons with light AV capability, while the Dalton and Shredder are robust AV weapons, with laughable AI capabilities.

    Alas we must now delve into the A2A Liberator as it is always a source of controversy: Originally spawning out of mere self-defence as the AA tailgun defensive options were, and still are, lacking as a sole means to ward off would be aerial predators, some of the (few) experienced crews took to utilizing their belly gun to do the work a single walker could never do. The Dalton being the preferred weapon though the Shredder was equally, if not more capable. Over time the general population caught on to how some players were fighting other air targets with their belly and began to emulate it as best they could, and this is where things get screwy. Most instances of ESFs dying to belly guns is out of sheer lack of experience, and as more and more libs tilted their belly toward the target in an attempt to recreate what only a handful of people were doing with success verses talented pilots, more and more inexperienced ESFs would just keep flying straight at the Lib. Not using, or just ignorant of what I cited earlier as the ESFs trump card in this situation - the ability to control the fight. So it's not to say the Liberator is over-equipped or too versitile to engage air targets, taking away from its primary role as a A2G workhorse, but rather that there is a disparagingly large gap between the number of Liberators roaming around with a faint sense of how to defend itself with its belly and the number of ESFs that take to the skies and just plain don't know how to fight a Lib. Many of the latter show up here on the forums to politely talk about their experience and how they feel the Liberator should be balanced as a result.

    I um.. hope that isnt a huge train wreck of thoughts as I am typing this out on a very small phone at work and it's difficult for me to scroll up to see what I had written just a minute prior. Sh.. should I drop my Mic now?
  11. Scr1nRusher



    This was actually a great post, well done.
  12. ColonelChingles


    That's an interesting explanation.

    However, one might wonder why ESFs don't have this same amount of trouble when attacking things like a ground-based AP Vanguard. After all, the Vanguard AP cannon has a faster muzzle velocity than a Dalton cannon, which in theory would make it much easier for the Vanguard gunner to get a fatal hit?

    Yet the data shows that Daltons have significantly more AKPH than Vanguards do...

    Why are ESF pilots smart enough to not get nailed by Vanguard cannon yet those same pilots are not smart enough to dodge the slower Liberator cannon?
  13. PKfire

    Tanks don't fight on a 3-D plane. Aerial vehicles will always have an advantage in this regard, and the nature of their fights are different as a result.
  14. ColonelChingles


    So to summarize the argument you've presented...

    ESFs will fly straight at Liberators. Hence Liberator gunners have an easy time hitting ESFs that are heading straight at them.

    Yet ESFs will not fly straight at MBTs. Hence MBT gunners do not have an easy time hitting ESFs because the ESFs are not heading straight at them.

    My question is why ESFs will not fly straight at MBTs (presumably because they understand the threat of MBT AP cannon) yet will still fly straight at a Liberator who is belly-eyeballing them.
  15. PKfire


    It is pretty common knowledge across all games with Air and Ground vehicles that tanks cannot look directly up. As such, it's regular practice to exploit this weakness.
  16. ColonelChingles


    Maybe we should make it so Liberators cannot look directly up? That might be a nice balance change so Liberators don't lie on their backs while lazily shelling air superiority aircraft.

    Not sure an AC-130 has ever scored an A2A kill...
    • Up x 1
  17. PKfire


    Are you so jaded that you would remove an aircraft's ability to roll for the sake of 'specialization'? This is me defending the thing I love most in this game, so bare with me; If you were to kill the A2A Liberator, which I am assuming you're implying by that change, you would be effectively removing an experience that absolutely cannot be replicated in any other game and would be paramount to removing the ESFs reverse maneuver and hover-duel experience, staple aspects of the air game for two years now. These are flight mechanics that many players uniquely love in Planetside, giving people a refreshing opportunity to battle with crazy ******* VTOL fighters and insanely fun crewed gunships. Hell, the Battle Galaxy is right up there with the Liberator in uniquely awesome A2A potential. These are things you can't find elsewhere, especially not in a combined arms environment. Remove all that and you would crush several communities in the process of finding your ideal of balance and versatility. Too many memories, too many friends, for far too long to accept you wanting to change that.

    PS: if you think Liberators are killing air targets because they are able to look upside down, you have little to no grasp of how it works.

    Edit: edits. goodnight
  18. Liberty

    Lightning - AI farming machine with Viper and HEAT rounds
    MBT - AI farming machine with the option to take an AV secondary (so you can chase other infantry farmers away but not usually kill them)
    Harasser - Fast Moving AI farming machine
    ESF - Every ESF should have an old banshee equivalent and bring back the old splash radius rocket pods so they can keep infantry huddled in buildings where they belong.
    Liberator - Bring back old Dalton splash, reduce AV damage, increase splash damage. Bring back shredder splash damage so they can return to their intended role.
    Galaxy - Needs at least 4 bulldog weapon mounts so it can be a good support AI farming aircraft, with the current nerfs 2 really isn't enough.
    • Up x 2
  19. Taemien

    My opinion on roles would require an overhaul of bases. Basically give them destructible walls, floors, tunnels, ceilings, ect that changes the flow of battle in the favor of the attacking side. Maybe a bridge or tunnel leading from the spawn gets taken out forcing the defenders to go a longer but more dangerous route. Wall near a gen room can be blown open so infantry can spew forward from a sundy just outside. SCU in a biolab or other base has a ceiling that can be blown open and allow aerial drops to go in and shut it down.

    HEAT would be better than HE and AP for Anti-Base (AB) work. Giving it a niche. Infantry explosives would have little effect on structures, they could do the job, but we're talking 8-12 C4 bricks to do the job of 4-6 HEAT rounds. AP and HE would still do damage, but quite a bit less. In addition attacking wouldn't require vehicles to destroy structures, as bases could be captured with them still intact, just like SCUs. It just makes the attack a bit easier and changes up the battle flow. Repairs could be done, but only from locations that exposes the engineers to hostile fire, ensuring they have to be quick or protected (much like with turrets).

    So with that in mind. Here's the added roles some of the vehicles could play:

    MBT: Spearhead assault vehicle. This is the one you want to use to not only take down structures, but any other vehicle that stands in its way. Lightnings really don't wish to engage this one on one and neither do harassers. Its AA ability is like it is now.. a lucky shot from the main cannon is the best it can do. And AI is well alright, better if equipped with it (I'd increase the potential of the HE round, maybe make it inadequate in AV and AB(Anti-Base) roles).

    Lightning: This is the tank you want to use if you wish to attack a base fast. Its stats don't change much from what it is now. It has other cannons available to specialize in those roles much like it does now. It can also be a great heavier single person platform for responding to enemy vehicle attacks.

    Sunderer: All the roles it currently does now. Its in a good spot.

    Harasser: Same as the sunderer. I'd let it do what it does now. I wouldn't allow its weapons to do much damage to structures, some if its capable of damaging heavy vehicles (no AI weapons damaging structures). But you really want the Lightning and MBT for that.

    Flash: Again its good for what it does. It'd be better without the current redeploy mechanics.

    ESF: The Lightning of the Skies. It can do anything, as long as it has the payloads for it. Nose gun isn't something I'd allow to do much damage to structures. But Hornet Missles and Rocket Pods (to a lesser degree) would be great for this work.

    Liberator: The MBT of the skies. Now the Dalton has a good reason to bring to a base. Its other weapons keep it in the same roles as now.

    Valkyrie: With so many options available for quick insertions this suddenly becomes the go to craft. Especially if redeploy changes favor transport vehicles a bit more. You can spawn in it, dispose of it, or even keep using it. I would change the weapons a bit more to fit a close attack role. Even making it more devastating than a Lib if you can get within 30m.

    Galaxy: Continues to do what it does. Though the proposed repair and ammo additions sound awesome as an aerial supply thing. Maybe if the Valk's weapons get supped up so they are damn awesome or even a little OP, but require frequent reloading even if certed.. requiring an ammo Gal to be nearby. Make this truly the Sundy of the skies.


    Another change to really help Flashes, Valks, and Gals a bit more would be to change how redeploying works. When you die or redeploy here is the options:

    1. Warpgate.
    2. Base/region you were in when death or redeploy occurred.
    3. Squad beacon.
    4. Squad Sundy/Valk/Gal (has a squad member in it)
    5. Fire Team* Lib/MBT/Harasser (has a fire team member in it)
    6. Deployed Sundy within 1000m of death or redeploy location
    7. Reinforcement Request**

    * Fire Teams are small squads. 4 people to a team and 3 of these per squad. They don't have their own chat or voice and the fire team leader can only set priority targets (Q hold like SLs can do now). But the bonus is they are used for quick coordination of vehicle crews since players in a FT can deploy straight to a Lib or MBT.

    ** Reinforcement request would be changed. Basically it would have a 3 minute cooldown. And it only lasts for 45 seconds. The benefit is, if you are lower than 50% of the pop at a location you are attacking or defending you can make a request. For 45 seconds players can redeploy to that location if there is a suitable spawn (spawn room, or deployed sundy). Once they reach 51% the function stops (but the marker stays). The function stops IMMEDIATELY. So squad members who didn't make it will need to rely on other sources to get there.

    Calling for a defense request in a territory you don't own does NOT cause the effect of redeploy to be available, but it still puts down the marker. Same thing if calling for offense of a base you do own. And to make the cert line a little more valuable, you get reinforcement exp when people respond (if there is a good number of enemy present, kinda like the directive). And there could be a directive added for this as well.

    All this put together would make PS2 a very interesting game. More tactical and more strategic. And takes a little emphasis off the zerging. Its still there, as it was when the game first came out. But the zerg will have to flow around the map, not instantly pop up somewhere.
  20. Ianneman

    Primary role for air: dying.