[Suggestion] SMG/PDW, Scout Rifles and Empire weapon variant balance suggestions

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by omegaskorpion, Apr 5, 2015.

  1. omegaskorpion


    Truth said!
  2. TheFamilyGhost

    In other words, you think your tears can turn you from a victim to an actor.

    Also, read little bit more. I am not using complex sentence structures.
  3. omegaskorpion


    And right there you lost me, what were you talking about again?
  4. NC supporter

    I do read quite a bit, but I am not so sure about the rest of the people on this forum. I was also in no means upset, but merely providing my own opinion regarding on the supposed dark age of gaming. I also doubt you even read anything I wrote due to you just saying insults towards things unrelated to what I was writing about.
  5. TheFamilyGhost

    The belief that power of argument is more effective than logical reasoning being wrong, and certainly not the path that a person who takes responsibility for their in-game experiences takes.
  6. TheFamilyGhost

    I read the whole thing. Frankly, it was a rambling wall of text that had nothing to do (or at the very best refuted what you sought to support) with the conversation that you injected yourself into, which was that those who project their opinions in the name of "balance" instead of logical reasoning are actually describing something more logical than reliance on immutable laws governing weapon behavior which are immune to the variables of online gaming, and the whims of those who gain more reward from being victims than accountable.

    Also, to be perfectly clear, my reference to the "dark age of gaming" has nothing to do with the number or quality of the games being produced. It has everything to do with players thinking they are entitled to the experience THEY WANT, instead of the experience they have. This notion of entitlement becomes even more absurd in the realm of PvP.
  7. omegaskorpion


    Ok this is getting out of context.

    Do you have anything to say about the balance ideas (what is ok, what is bad and what is pointless)

    Because this is becoming pointless arguing and not constructive discussion about certain weapons that need a second look from the developers.

    (truth to be told developers should keep all weapons in check since balance is never ending process)
  8. zaspacer

    Your Grammar is fine for me.

    Yeah, it's just different Jargon. I understood what you meant, but I can appreciate how others got confused.

    I happened to notice CapEnTrade's confusion on it, so I replied to him in order to clarify. Clarification and Goodwill are great remedies to confusion during Communication.

    It would be great if you could communicate for each Weapon:
    1) what Role Current Version fits (and if that is a feasible Role in the game; why or why/not)
    2) what Role Current Version is Supposed to fit (and if that is a feasible Role in the game; why or why/not)
    3) how your New Version is different; why the change; and what Role your New Version fits


    Let's review the current (post-GU7) Empire Specific Semi Auto Scout Rifles (Nyx/Shadow/HSR)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You don't want to use the Current Empire Specific at Closer Ranges, and you also don't want to get caught having to use it at Closer Ranges: Nyx Hipfire Accuracy Range is unreliable past 5 meters, ADS Move Speed Multiplier is slow (0.5), and it has no Burst Fire

    You don't want to use the Nyx at Farther Ranges over 95 meters. The 4x Scope Target is Tiny past 95 meters. The 6x Scope you have to deal with 2x Headshots w/ Scope Sway which can frequently be a problem. The Weapon's Headshot Accuracy drops to 70% at 100 meters and 50% at 110 meters which is terrible.

    You are left using the gun from 40-95, going for 2x Headshots. Using the gun from 40-60 puts you in a range where the enemy can return fire fairly effectively, where they can move to your location, where Vehicle can trivally blast you, etc. Which leaves you the 60-90 meter range as optimum operational range... and that is just too narrow to reliably find battles having them.

    It does make for a good gun to use when doing the Sniping from inside a Spawnroom that is Spawncamped. Where it can safely and quickly move from target to target, that are each 10-90 meters away.

    Another major problem for the Empire Specific Semi Auto Scout Rifle is that most players now use HAs/Maxs in bases and Maxs and Vehicles between or outside bases. Many times I have Infiltrated the perimeter of an enemy Zerg only to find out there are no non-Max Infantry targets to target outside the base, and I'd have to enter CQC inside the Base to engage the non-Max Inafntry. The role for the Empire Specific Semi Auto Scout Rifle (as narrow and limited as it is) is consistently obsolete.



    NYX: Mag size: 15, Ammo Pool 75, Fire rate: 400, Damage: 334 15m > 250 75m, Muzzle velocity: 530,
    Reload time: 2s > 3s
    > Change from current Version: Buff = Mag +3, Ammo Pool +6, Rate-Of-Fire +145 (+57%), Bullet Speed +10; Nerf = Min Damage -30, Short Reload +0.05, Long Reload +0.6
    > Change Type:
    > Current Usage Rate: 134
    > Notes: Infiltrator Only; VS Only
    > Text Blurb:
    1) what Role Current Version fits: Aim-Down-Sights Targets from 40-90 meters with 2x Headshots using a 4x Scope + Forward Grip. 4x Scope has no Scope Sway, allowing for faster Target Acquisition and Longer Aim On Target.
    2) is that Current Role Good?: No. Bolt Actions kill faster, more reliably (Bolt Actin only needs 1x Headshot), safer (1x Headshots draws less attention than 2x Headshots: that 2nd tracer is what they use to find you) and from a larger Window of ranges.
    2) what Role Current Version is Supposed to fit: No Idea
    3) is that Supposed Role Good? N/A
    3) how your New Version is different: Faster firing in a mode the gun doesn't use. No change to terrible Hipfire. Various small boosts in performance. None of it really makes the gun fit a Good role well.


    Let's review your suggested changes
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Small Buffs: Mag +3, Ammo Pool +6, Rate-Of-Fire +145 (+57%), Bullet Speed +10
    Big Buffs: None
    Small Nerfs: Min Damage Distance -30 meters
    Big Nerfs: None

    Rate-Of-Fire only affects Hipfire and ADS Bodyshots. Neither of which is an area the Nyx is good, even with the changes. Why? Because the Hipfire is bad past 5 meters. Because the Vertical Recoil (how much the gun kicks up with the first shot) is too High, and the Recoil Decrease (the time it takes for the gun to return to level after stopping firing) is too Low. Because these guns don't have burst. And Because Infiltrators will get outgunned (lower TTK, bad ADS Move Speed Modifier) if they try to kill doing Bodyshots at closer ranges that Bodyshots need.

    The pre-GU7 versions were better than the Current versions because they had substantially better COF Bloom/Shot for both ADS and Hipfire. Losing those lowered its Hipfire range to under 5 meters, and capped its ADS range to 95 meters Max. Effectively making it terribe at CQC and removing it's long range game. And the ranges it was left with of 40-95 meters and relying on mostly stationary targets and 2x Headshots just is too narrow a role and too infrequently needed on the Battlefield.

    You want to make Small Buffs to the gun? Fine, but still nobody will use it. You want to Greatly Buff the gun? Figure out the role you want it to cover, and then buff it for that. Either:
    1) extend the operating ranges by lowering Hipfire and/or ADS COF Bloom/Shot (and giving back its 6x Scope the no Scope Sway: Scope Sway on a Weapon needing more than 1 shot to kill is brutal), or
    2) improve the gun's effectiveness in its narrow 40-95 meter range by giving it a faster 2x Headshot by either Lowering the First Shot Recoil Multiplier and/or Raising the Recoil Decrease.



    SHADOW: Mag size: 12, Ammo Pool 72, Fire rate: 300, Damage: 370 15m > 300 75m, Muzzle velocity: 600,
    Reload time: 2.5s > 3.5s
    > Change from current Version: Rate-Of-Fire +45 (+18%), Max Damage +36, Min Damage -20 , Bullet Speed +30
    > Change Type: 93
    > Current Usage Rate:
    > Notes: Infiltrator Only; NC Only
    > Text Blurb:
    1) what Role Current Version fits: picking off Targets from 40-90 meters with 2x Headshots
    2) what Role Current Version is Supposed to fit:
    3) how your New Version is different:



    HSR: Mag size: 20, Ammo Pool 100, Fire rate: 570, Damage: 200 10m > 164 60m, Muzzle velocity: 550,
    Reload time: 2,7s > 4s. (full auto)
    > Change from current Version: Buff = Mag +8, Ammo Pool +32, Rate-Of-Fire +315 (+124%); Nerf = Max Damage -134, Max Damage Distance -5m, Min Damage -116, Min Damage Distance -15 meters, Bullet Speed -20
    > Change Type:
    > Current Usage Rate: 81
    > Notes: Infiltrator Only; TR Only
    > Text Blurb:
    1) what Role Current Version fits: picking off Targets from 40-90 meters with 2x Headshots
    2) what Role Current Version is Supposed to fit:
    3) how your New Version is different:




    NS VANDAL: Mag size 15, Ammo Pool 75, Fire rate: 500, Damage: 300 10m > 250 75m, Muzzle velocity: 570,
    Reload time: 2,6s > 3.8s
    > Change from current Version: Buff = Rate-Of-Fire +245 (+96%), Bullet Speed +50; Nerf = Max Damage -34, Max Damage Distance -5m, Min Damage -30
    > Change Type:
    > Current Usage Rate: NC = 220; TR = 224; VS = 270
    > Notes: Infiltrator Only; Common Pool
    > Text Blurb:
    1) what Role Current Version fits: Hipfire from 0-10 meters, Aim-Down-Sights Targets from 10-35 meters. With 2x Headshots or 3-4 Bodyshots. Using a 1-2x Scope + Laser Sight, and with the 0.75 ADS Move Speed Multiplier allowing good ADAD. Very much a Closer Range "run and gun" Weapon.
    2) is that Current Role Good?: Kinda. It has a good niche and works well for Non-Max and Non-HA Infantry. But the problem is that more and more players are no longer using Non-Max and Non-HA Infantry.
    2) what Role Current Version is Supposed to fit: No Idea
    3) is that Supposed Role Good? N/A
    3) how your New Version is different: Much Faster firing (though still no Burst mode, so you gotta Click fast) in a mode the gun uses. Lower Damage-Per-Shot at all Ranges.

    Not sure how the Faster Firing vs. Lower Damage works out overall. Seems like this could be better for players with very fast mouse clicking skills, which I personally HATE as a player because I find it annoying and I'm bad at it.

    The Current Vandal is well liked by a lot of people. It's a Semis Auto Scout with better Hipfire and better ADS Move Speed Multiplier. A fun close range run and gun Weapon. And it's use much more than the other Semi Auto Scouts. Even so, it's numbers still aren't great. Since I don't use it, I'd can only speculate, but I'd guess it's biggest reasons for not being used more are:
    1) it can't be used by an HA
    2) opponents are now spawning more as HA or Max, or traveling in Vehicle Zergs, all of which the Vandal is not as good vs.



    You might address this by making a follow-up post titled "Weapon Mods v1.2: SMG/PDW, Scout Rifles and Empire weapon variant balance suggestions (<insert month/year>)". You can use the feedback and conversations and idea changes you get from this Thread, and use them to populate the Content for the first post of that Thread.
  9. zaspacer

    This game is not immutable, on many levels, and for many reasons. The mechanics do conform to the parameters of fairly fixed systems within the context of each Game Version.

    Even in a game with "immutable" parameters governing a system, the game is still subjective relative to how those parameters were selected.

    "Agenda" is not necessarily a bad thing for games. It can be a very good thing, if it conforms to what the players, and/or Developer/Publisher, and/or etc. benefit from.

    That's just nonsense.

    Believing in and Chasing some absolute ideal of PS2 is pursuing Medieval Alchemy. This isn't Plato's Theory of Forms.

    I'm the first to advance the notion that people frequently don't reliably know what they want. My saying, "you don't ask a fish if it's hungry, you put food in the water and see if it eats".

    But to ignore that the system in place at any given time is itself the product of someone's conjuring is silly. And to ignore the ability to tinker a system to improve it (given you have the quality players at the helm to handle said tinkering) is likewise silly.

    Your cryptic and weird prose does not help the situation either.
  10. omegaskorpion




    Very good feedback, i will continue to improve the stats now that i know where to go with them.

    i will continue to update this topic until i see that ideas are ready to be posted to new topic.
  11. T0x1s

    TR battle rifle should be a 2x burst weapon 167 damage model
  12. omegaskorpion

    that actualy sounds good idea.
  13. Sunflash

    Leave my damn Artemis out of this, blast your eyes.
  14. MarkAntony

    this is how I feel about all of the scoutrifles tbh. they are perfectly fine as they are. you just need to learn how to use them.
    • Up x 1
  15. omegaskorpion

    people have complained how bad they are for ages, how they are worser than most of the other guns.

    Personly i have found them good use... but they are still lacking in many ways, they also aren't unique (like many copy paste weapons)

    This topic is only about bringing them to better level. What bad would it cause to you if your weapons gets buff?
  16. MarkAntony

    I agree that the copy&paste part is bad. I'd very much like a second round of scout rifles that are more faction specific.

    What bad could happen? Man, talk about tempting fate. Remember what happened after the lib got buffed? Nerfed to a worse state than before. I don't want that.

    And I know people have been complaining but they were buffed in the meantime (remember when auto scout rifles had 20 rounds in the mag?). And in my humble opinion right now it is just a L2P issue now.
  17. omegaskorpion

    Well yes, some buffs go overboard, which could be caused by not enough testing.

    Yep, scout rifles have seen their worst days and you might be right that its just about learning to use them.

    However i still want to see the more faction unique scout rifles so i continue to think some "unique" stats, however differend stats can sometimes cause imbalance between empires (like some weapon is better only in one empire and in this case the Artemis is the best scout rifle right now [no bullet drop and silent])
  18. omegaskorpion

    Scout Rifles
    First generation:
    SOAS: Mag size: 40, Ammo Pool 240, Fire rate: 700, Damage: 143 15m > 125 75m, Muzzle velocity: 600,
    Reload time: 2,6s short, 4s long.
    Hip acc: 2.5/3/3/3.5/0.1

    ARTEMIS: Mag size: 30, Ammo Pool 210, Fire rate: 650, Damage: 143 15m > 125 75m, Muzzle velocity: 650,
    Reload time: 1,7s short, 3,5 long.
    Hip acc: 2/2,5/2,5/3/0.1

    STALKER: Mag size: 30, Ammo Pool 150, Fire rate: 577, Damage: 164 15m > 143 75m, Muzzle velocity: 680,
    Reload time: 2,5s short, 3,5 long.
    Hip acc: 2.5/3/3/3.5/0.1

    Artemis has now best hip acc, Stalker has now best damage and muzzle velocity, Soas has now biggest fire rate and ammo/mag capacity.
    All scout rifles have now better mag size so they can compeat with assault rifles, assault rifles still have bettter fire rate but scout rifles have better range. Aim acc is not touched


    Second generation:
    SHADOW: Mag size: 12, Ammo Pool 72, Fire rate: 225, Damage: 370 15m > 300 75m, Muzzle velocity: 600,
    Reload time: 2.5s > 3.5s
    Hip acc: 2.5/3/3/3.5/0.2

    HSR: Mag size: 20, Ammo Pool 100, Fire rate: 300, Damage: 200 10m > 164 75m, Muzzle velocity: 570,
    Reload time: 2.5s > 3.5s.
    Hip acc: 2.5/3/3/3.5/0.2
    (fires 2 round bursts now, can be changed to semi auto)

    NYX: Mag size: 15, Ammo Pool 75, Fire rate: 255, Damage: 334 10m > 280 65m, Muzzle velocity: 600,
    Reload time: 2s > 2.9s
    Hip acc: 2.5/3/3/3.5/0.2

    NS VANDAL: Mag size 15, Ammo Pool 75, Fire rate: 255, Damage: 334 15m > 280 75m, Muzzle velocity: 580,
    Reload time: 2,6s > 3.5s
    Hip acc 2.25/2.75/2.75/3.25/0.4

    NS Vandal is now mostly the same, since it was pretty good to begin with, but the hip acc boom has been degreased to 0.4 and muzzle velocity has been increased.
    All second generation scout rifles have now better hip acc boom of 0.2. Aim acc is untouched.


    SMG/PDW
    First Generation

    AMISTICE: Mag size: 40 (50ext), Ammo Pool 300, Fire rate: 896, Damage: 125 12m > 100 48m, Muzzle velocity: 370,
    Reload time: 2.25s > 3s

    CYCLONE: Mag size: 30 (40ext), Ammo Pool 300, Fire rate: 665, Damage: 164 12m > 125 50m, Muzzle velocity: 400,
    Reload time: 2s > 2.92s

    ERIDANI: Mag size: 30 (40ext), Ammo Pool 300, Fire rate: 750, Damage: 143 12m > 100 50m, Muzzle velocity: 360,
    Reload time: 1.9s > 2.7s

    NS PDW: Mag size: 40 (50ext), Ammo Pool 320, Fire rate: 750, Damage: 134 15m > 110 65m, Muzzle velocity: 410,
    Reload time: 2.35s > 2.67s

    Second Generation
    HAILSTORM: Mag size: 100, Ammo Pool 300, Fire rate: 800, Damage: 100 12m > 85 45m, Muzzle velocity: 340,
    Reload time: 3.5s > 4.5s

    BLITZ: Mag size: 60, Ammo Pool 260, Fire rate: 850, Damage: 125 12m > 100 48m, Muzzle velocity: 370,
    Reload time: 2.25s > 2.8s

    SIRIUS: Mag size: 70, Ammo Pool 270, Fire rate: 800, Damage: 125 12m > 100 45m, Muzzle velocity: 340,
    Reload time: 2s > 2.5s

    MKV SUPRESSED: Mag size: 60, Ammo Pool 260, Fire rate: 800, Damage: 134 8m > 110 50m, Muzzle velocity: 350,
    Reload time: 2.5s > 3s

    Removed soft point ammo from all smg (there was no downside to have it from the begining) but increased range.
    All Smg/Pdw have now more ammo. Even with improved hip acc, good mag size and range, the smg/pdw still wont be as effective at range since the aim will sway more with them than carbines.
    Aim acc and hip acc are untouched

    Empire Sniper Rifles
    Every Carbon copy sniper should have something from their empires:

    Starting semi-auto snipers: TR should have the highest fire rate having one (with accuracy boost), NC should have bit more damage and best velocity, VS should have fastest reload and no bullet drop (no bullet drop isn't present right now with snipers)
    [vs snipers gain infinite range but damage should decrease faster than other snipers in range.]
    Same kind of balances should go to bolt action rifles too.

    RAILJACK: Damage increase to 800. Can pierce trough multiple enemies (if they happen to be in bullets flying path), deals bit more damage to lightly armored vehicles.

    TRAP: Mag size increase to 21

    PHASESHIFT: Charge level 3 damage increase to 750, creates small explosion when charged attack hits enemy/ground.

    (weapons need to be more diverse, no matter what weapon.
    the railtrapshift were kinda odd place so i tried to make them more desirable)

    UNDER BARREL GRENADE LAUNCHER
    1000 direct hit damage (as it is suppose to be)
    600 indirect damage in 5m radius.
    Reload speed 2,5
    Grenade fly longer (but speed is same)
    Grenade can't explode until it has traveled 6m
    (this change is because right now nade laucher is kinda odd place)

    PISTOLS
    MAG-SCATTER: mag size increase from 4 to 6. Ammo capacity increased to 36.

    DESPERADO: Mag Size increase from 14 to 24. Ammo capacity change to 72. Min range increased from 8 to 10.

    INQUISITOR: Min Damage increase to 164. (now take in consideration that emperor still has better range so it won't become obsolete)

    T4 AMP: Mag size increased to 40, ammo capacity increased to 200.

    REPEATER: Ammo Capacity increased to 147

    BEAMER: Hip and accuracy aim increase.

    (pistols had imbalances so i made some adjustments to their stats to make them more usefull)

    NS WEAPONS AND MODIFICATIONS
    New suit modifications:

    Infantry: Harden Shields: increases shields small arms damage resistance max: 12.5%
    MAX: Max Shields: max loses 1000 health and gains 500-600 shields that have same resistances as normal max

    NS asault rifle max damage increase to 155, min damage 134, mag size decreased to 30.
    NS lmg max damage increase to 155, min damage to 134, mag size decreased to 50.
    NS carbine damage max damage increased to 155, mag size decreased to 30.
    NS pdw changes (from smg)

    All ns weapons above lose their soft and high velocity ammo,
    NS weapons above gain armor piercing and shield piercing ammo

    Armor piercing ammo deals more damage to health and max units, also decreases nano weave armor effectivenes, but deals less damage to shields, making time to kill same as it was with the normal ammo but makes difference when nano armor, infilrator or max units are counted.

    Shield piercing ammo deals addional damage against shields, aegis shield, max shields, harden shields and heavy assault over/resist/adreline shields, but has decreased damage against health (deals normal damage to max units) making time to kill same as normaly.

    (the idea is to make NS weapons more versitile, 155 damage model has same time to kill as 143 damage, aka 7 shots to kill, but makes more impact when fighting infiltrators. Ammo types will make more diversity what player wants to focus on, shields or health.

    VEHICLE WEAPONS

    BASILISK
    (this one is not so important to balance since basilisk is in good place right now, however it could use empire specific trades)
    VS: No bullet drop, most accurate.
    NC: Most damage and bullet velocity.

    TR: Fastest fire rate and highest mag size.
    (only reason for these changes is diversity)

    KOBALT
    No empire specific trades
    Deals 10 damage to heavy armored targets (main Battle Tanks, Lightnings, Liberators, Galaxy's) Which is total 1000 damage per magazine (may change with armor types)

    (reason for this "buff" is to make kobalt usefull, since only infantry fighting weapons tend to become useless in tank battles and air stikes, this however dont make them best option for heavy armor, and only harrassing)

    WALKER
    Is now able to look down slightly (it can now aim ground targets better but still not as well as basilisk)
    Reduced damage against tanks.


    RANGER
    Is now able to look down slightly.
    Deals now damage against tanks (both with direct hit and flak explosion) (cant replace basilisk in terms of tank damage but is now bit more versatile)

    (changes are made to anti air weapons because ranger is bad weapon and walker is decent vs armor, however they should be both ok vs armor but only excel countering air, but wont become useless if infantry or vehicles arive)

    MARAUDER
    Deals 40 Damage to tanks per shot (400 damage per magazine)

    C85-CANISTER
    Deals 5 damage per pellet (60) to tanks, damage reduces on range. (600 damage per mag in close range)

    PROTON II
    Deals 30 damage per shot to tanks (360 per magazine)

    (since these weapons are only good vs infantry, they become useless vs air and tanks, this makes them usefull vs tanks in some margin but not the best and agaisnt air its about luck, or skill)


    Tell what do you think about these suggestions and what should change...
  19. omegaskorpion

    I have been testin underbarrel nade lauchers lately again, they seem to perform better then they did before, has there been hidden fixes to its projective velocity and drop rate since it "feels" to be improved. Can somebody confirm?
  20. TheFamilyGhost

    Agreed. I am simply pointing out that speaking of weapon performance based on arbitrary terms is fruitless, and frankly, pathetic.