[Guide] About AA buff suggestions

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by day ofm one, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. axiom537

    Unfortunately you are taking my comment out of context, building a straw man with it and then not using it as it was meant which was in direct response to another comment.

    Tanks are a counter to Tanks, Just like liberators are a counter to other liberators. I did not say that I felt Liberators should be the only counter, but rather in comparison to the Skyguard of course they are a better counter, because they share the same mechanics, they can fly and move in 3 dimensional space and actively attack other Air vehicles and each other, while Skyguards are limited to a 2 dimensional plane and are mostly a passive AA weapon platform. I said that this is not a bad thing, because if the greatest threat to Air vehicles are other Air vehicles, then their first priority will be to deal with each other, which encourages and helps the Air game thrive. I do not have an issue with the Dalton being better at AA then the sky guard, because at the end of the day it is kill Air.
  2. zombielores

    ESF Hornets verses MBT, TB Lib versus MBT, AV Infantry versus AV MBT, AV MBT versus other ground vehicle, Max versus infantry, HE versus infantry, etc counter from another vehicle that's completely different. So it's definitely not the case.
  3. Ronin Oni

    and there's just as many counters vs Air if you want me to list every thing that can hurt them.

    Tank zerg, what's the counter?

    Bigger tank zerg or leave.
  4. zombielores

    I can do that with the Sky guard too, I can face my front towards enemy air so they deal less damage, I can predict where aircraft is going to go, but it doesn't matter what I do the lib can always escape unless I get multiple people to focus fire to counter 1 vehicle.
  5. zombielores

    For ESF maybe Skyguard or Burster you can kill them if they stay too long, Libs and Galaxies, not a chance.

    You could throw numbers at them, or you can Render Range AV Infantry them or Bring Equal Amounts of A2G aircraft. Outside of a select few ESF Balls, you will not see groups of aircraft together.
  6. ColonelChingles

    I don't think that quite makes sense, because there are different types of air units.

    For example, in terms of tanks it would be silly to say that since tanks are meant to counter tanks, then it is fine when all tanks kill each other. Obviously this is not the case, because there are different types of tanks meant for different purposes. A Skyguard, for example, is an AA tank meant to kill (tickle) air, not other tanks. We don't have Skyguards going around solo-killing too many AP Lightnings or MBTs, because that is not the Skyguard's role. The Skygaurd is (should be) good at one thing only, and fails at other roles.

    Likewise, the Liberator should be a specialized A2G aircraft and the ESFs ought to be more geared towards air superiority. Just as how the MBT will destroy Skyguards, ESFs should have a near insurmountable advantage over Liberators when it comes to A2A combat. That is good game design, because ESFs are meant to counter Liberators in the same way that Skyguards ought to counter Liberators.

    So unless Liberators are killing parked aircraft, it is probably beyond their role to be good at killing aircraft... more so than a Skyguard at any rate.
    • Up x 2
  7. Ronin Oni

    Again, what part about OPPORTUNITY do you not understand?

    No pilot with any amount of real experience flying sticks around anywhere near a Skyguard long enough to get killed (which is quite fast I might add)

    Conversely, ESF's charge after Libs like moths to a flame.

    The fact it's a OHK only makes it even more so. It's not like a Zephyr where the first hit takes em below 50% and they realize "****! I should prolly get away from this fracker!"

    I don't of course. I keep a healthy distance from libs for good reason. Between Skyguards and Libs in the last couple months flying I've eaten it a few times from skyguards catching me unawares and before I could break LoS, whereas not A SINGLE LIB has killed me, despite attacking them on site.

    Cause I'm not an idiot.

    Dalton VKPH vs ESF's is only higher because the ESF's they're killing are MORONS.

    If those ESF pilots attacked skyguards with the same abandon they attack Libs, Skyguards would be RAINING in kills and certs.
  8. z1967

    Not really. As infantry, I have an option to kill any tank on almost every class, usually in the form of C4 (which can also be used against MAXes and infantry) but still carry a primary/secondary weapon. As air, I can heavily damage tanks and infantry with the same weapon but still have an option for A2A.

    However, to kill air through a dedicated weapon I have to use something specialized exactly for that task, instead of a multi-functional weapon. If the Skyguard was an infantry threat, I would be less salty about it's current situation for balance.
  9. Mythologicus

    The problem with flak:

    It sucks for the people who use it because it can't hurt a fly.
    It sucks for the people on the receiving end because it never goes away.

    Nobody likes using it.
    Nobody likes being hit by it.

    So uh...

    LET'S REVAMP THE SKYGUARD WITH MIZZILEZ!
  10. Mythologicus

    So what you're saying is that the fragile Liberator which dies to ground vehicles more than it does to aircraft should be revamped into a pure anti-ground vehicle completely incapable of fighting back against air vehicles and...a ground vehicle?

    Anti-air meant to kill air or not, if you want the Liberator to be dedicated (and thus utterly amazing) at killing ground vehicles then you have to realise that the Skyguard is also a ground vehicle, and thus is as vulnerable as any other unless you give it an ENORMOUS gun. This presents the case of either being able to instagib ESFs and Liberators from over 1km away, or not. This is not 'good game design'.
  11. z1967

    You said exactly this:


    I am not inventing words. The tank is not the best counter for another tank. In an AP lightning I spend 350 resources and maybe kill a few tanks and wound some others before being destroyed. As a C4/xbow fairy, I can kill 2 tanks per life for a total cost of 75 resources per tank. It is more efficient, and in some cases more effective, to use infantry AV. Air AV is lol, but I don't use it because the air game is lol.

    I am honestly too tired to make a good argument for the rest and I don't want to say anything stupid, so here is the gist of it. Dedicated weapon is dedicated to killing one type of enemy = excellent at killing one specific type of enemy, bad at everything else. This is good balance. Versatile weapon not dedicated to killing many enemies = maybe good at one thing and meh at other roles. This is good balance. Balance should not be orange beats only orange, blue beats only blue etc. Balance should be a complex chart of who does what to ensure every unit is good at something but is also very vulnerable to something. kinda RTS-ish balance.

    It's not a game argument strawman till we bring up stats, previous posts, or forum icons lol.
  12. z1967

    faction specific AA ideas:

    TR- omg miniguns everywhere. like, a million dakkas per second or something.

    VS- destroy them with lasers?

    NC- missile barrage of doom with option to lock-on for accuracy.

    NS- boring stuff we have right now
    • Up x 1
  13. ColonelChingles

    So give Skyguards this same opportunity. And since the engagement window of Skyguards would be much less than a Liberator, this naturally means a drastic increase in Skyguard practical DPS (up damage, reduce CoF, increase velocity, take your pick).

    Maybe Skyguards will get a chance to kill these "moronic" ESFs first! I mean does it really matter who they're dying to, a Skyguard or a Dalton?

    I'm totally in favor of that... I think an instagib/1.5 second TTK range of 400m ought to be good enough.

    Although if you're offering a 1km range I'd take that too!
    • Up x 1
  14. Jamuro

    AA and flak especially has some major issues ... i agree
    But the problem with any kind of buffs is that we still don't have different kinds of flak.

    Right now flak might not be as devastating as people hope, but can easily lock down an enormous area.
    For an esf pilot this means that there is a basically invulnerable (good luck getting close enough for 2 hornet salvos to the back of a skyguard) enemy there that "steals" a whole area of operation from them, without any chance to counter it.

    Now the skyguard users aint having fun either ... if he is lucky he has action for a few minutes, before everything is either dead (it happens ... realy ... believe me ^^) or limped out of reach onto the next base and suddenly the skyguard has to move, while beeing prey to basically everything on the ground.
    No fun either.

    I admit, since i honestly like flying a lot more than g2a duty, my opinion might be a bit biased, but i think my assesment of the situation is a pretty neutral one.

    Now here are my major issues with flak as ESF pilot

    the whole g2a situation is not an engagement ...
    IMO an engagement means that both sides are at risk and the better positioned, luckier one or just more skilled one wins.
    This is not the case


    Even half decend Skyguards are a danger and will mince you before you can even hope to land hornets on them (there are ofc funny exceptions, but they are few and far inbetween).

    And while not as deadly at longer ranges, a single skyguard in a good position can lock down basically a whole hex.
    He won't kill you at those ranges ... but make it impossible to fight or even fly trough that area.

    Burster maxes, have the whole i can hide in the spawnroom and shoot at you going for them and a good burster max is not something to underestimate.
    But they give up some of their survivability for the ability to get into cover when needed (not talking just about spawnrooms here) and
    while challenging, an esf pilot can actually fight back against them.
    It aint perfect ... not even close but it's more like i wish the whole g2a engagements would be.

    Lock ons ... oh boy this is the prime example of a bad design choice.
    Regardless if fighting infantry is something you wanna do with your esf or not, there will always be a lot more infantry on the ground than people in the air.
    And from the pilots perspective each and everyone of them could be the reason you are getting the lock on warning.
    Only AFTER they fire at you, (and only with the awareness implant) you will actually know who was shooting at you.

    Now the biggest issue i have (and this definitly has some bias to it)
    Ground2Air flak and lockons are deadlier to a2a esf's than to g2a which as far as i understand is the whole reason stuff like lock on launchers exist.

    To explain ... infantry front lines usually don't move fast in this game.
    After the first pass a good esf pilot will know where the hotspots are and can plan his bombing runs accordingly.
    With experience pilots tend to stop the hovering above the base bs and do (somethimes rather fast paced) runs, unloading their payload while taking advantage of cover on the way in and out.

    A a2a esf sadly doesn't have this luxury.
    An engagement between 2 esf's ends up usually out in the open and most of the times in some kind of pass or hover game, both of which won't generally be at full speed (after all you want to hit your enemy with as much of your clip as possible)

    A single lockon hit, or flak salvo and the a2a esf suddenly is at a big health disadvantage ... and in case of flak will continiously lose health at a high rate.
    Running is not an option in those cases either ... since the enemy esf will just pick you off.

    ------------
    Holy wall of text ... well time for a tl;dr; i quess


    Tl; dr; .:
    -> skyguards and generally most of the g2a are boring and offers the esf pilot nothing to win (or even engage)
    -> denial of area is detremental to action/xp and fun
    -> g2a is more effective against a2a esf's than a2g ones

    My wish:
    There are so few choices for flak and all try to be jack of all trades ... we need more variety and more specialisation when it comes to g2a
    • Up x 2
  15. Mythologicus

    Well, it'd have to be missiles because everything else kinda sucks in the ways I was describing. Alas for faction flavour, but it's that or a crappy AA system!

    The missile battery in question would most likely be able to kill an ESF in a single salvo or bring a Liberator down to half exactly, with missiles being released one by one over a period of about...maybe two-and-a-half seconds. To allow for a system like this, flares would need to be modified so that they perhaps redirect a handful of missiles per use (as an example) instead of immediately protecting aircraft from ALL missiles and missile locks. This would mean that flares would most likely only reduce damage taken somewhat. Aircraft would have to rely on actively trying to outrun or evade the missiles by using terrain. The reason I suggested exactly half health for a Liberator is that it requires them to successfully evade at least one missile to be able to survive, and considering that not all missiles are released immediately, they have some time to achieve this.

    The fundamental reason for why I suggested missiles though is that it is substantially easier to maintain a balance between satisfactory damage and limited range. The suggested damage is huge and should net Skyguard-users a decent number of kills, especially in places like Esamir and Indar, but the range is such that they can't so easily cover such an enormous area and suck the fun out of flying by making it impossible to travel anywhere without being under permanent attack.

    Missiles could potentially be dumbfired with some inaccuracy, which should provide not-indecent anti-tank capabilities. Skyguards should remain vulnerable to infantry however due to how easy it is to simply drive away from infantry in a vehicle, and any more ability to fight back would diminish the Skyguard's role as an AA support vehicle.
  16. Silkensmooth

    This is what ive been saying all along.

    I don't think anyone has any sympathy for a2g ESF, and as you say most of the weapons designed to defend against them work better vs a2a esf.

    A2A ESF arent flying low or running flares to avoid g2a locks and so it is we who actually hunt the podders that pay the greatest penalty for the podders actions.

    I would stand firmly behind buffs to flak if there was one caveat. Less damage to A2A ESF.

    Make flak fail to detonate if you arent running an A2G weapon and make A2A ESF unlockable, or add several seconds to the lock time, like stealth 10.

    This would actually help infantry because they would know who is a threat to them and who isnt.

    Also making the locks like striker rockets would be good. Most of the time with a conventional lock its impossible to get a lock off on a ground pounding ESF but the striker works great.

    The conventional G2A lock is actually only good against A2A ESF in dogfights. I have to stand out in the open and lock a plane for however many secs and im likely to die before i even get one shot off, whereas with the striker mechanic i have a lot more flexibility in how i use it.

    With the Striker i can nail hovering ESF and send them scurrying if not killing them, yet i cant do anything to ESF that are flying high above the ground or fighting at a distance.
  17. Alarox

    Just pointing this out, 300-400m is 1-1.5s of flight time which can be reliably led by an experienced player.

    I have multiple videos with shots in that range and farther. Ex:



    The first 5 or so shots in that video are 500-650m. 300-400m isn't terribly difficult by comparison.

    I'm not commenting on the point of your thread, just on the feasibility of your challenge.
  18. Liewec123


    yes.

    leading targets is no difficult task after a bit of practice, a few days ago i killed a sunderer using pounders from ontop of i biolab,
    they were moving near a base around 400m away, so i'm no stranger to leading targets and accounting for arcs and velocities etc.
    it is the CoF that makes skyguard useless, sure the velocity is dreadful, but after a bit of practice you get used to accounting for slow velocity.
    but like i said, if i'm accounting for velocity and aiming where i need to aim,
    then i shouldn't be firing off bullets everywhere except where i'm aiming.
    they can keep the damage the same for all i care, just let me shoot where i'm aiming!
    • Up x 1
  19. ColonelChingles

    The one thing about slow velocity that can't fixed is adjusting for different flight vectors.

    In other games with reasonable flight physics, slow velocity isn't so much a problem because aircraft have realistic momentum and cannot change that momentum so quickly. If an aircraft was heading in vector A (a direction and velocity), in a short time later it wouldn't have changed much from that vector. Hence even if flak shells are slow, you can reasonably anticipate where an aircraft might be.

    But in PS2, aircraft are capable of ridiculous aerial maneuvers, including coming to a quick stop or instantly turning direction. This means that even though you might have properly led the target and correctly predicted where that aircraft was going to be had it followed vector A, that aircraft is now flying vector B at a different direction and velocity. Leading a target was pointless, because the aircraft is now in a different place from where you predicted it would be when you fired that flak shell.

    Since I don't think pilots would want to give up their wonky flight model for a more realistic one, the good alternative would be to buff flak velocity to balance out the fact that PS2 pilots can change heading on a whim.
  20. Liewec123


    obviously that is true, but the examples i'm on about is when you have an ESF flying about 250-300m away in a nice straight line, you aim where you should be aiming and.....you're firing.....nothing is happening....bullets are flying everywhere except at the crosshairs...esf gets out of range without even knowing you had him dead to rights.