Anti Air partisans - A global invitation

Except your completely wrong, the best counter to armour is actually AV infantry. Lancer Squads, Vortex Maxes, Raven Maxes, C4 fairy gal drops, AV MANA turret squads, Lock-on squads, all you have to do as infantry is to abuse render distance. Vehicles don't scale well with numbers because of limited space, heavy resource cost, slow speed, and limited versatility.

Aircraft on the other hand can only be effectively countered by another aircraft or through large numbers focus firing (which is essentially a 5v1 or whatever depending on the people).

Having the only thing to effectively counter it be itself while being very effective against others creates for unfair and not fun game play, what if I told you Maxes can only be countered by Maxes, or If tanks can only be countered by tanks (not this everything counters tanks and infantry while only a select amount can counter aircraft), what if the only way to counter infantry was infantry, it creates bad game play as it doesn't promote combined arms.

I was happily reading along to this thread till the first page told me that the first target of Air is OTHER AIR.

"Welp this is full of lies then, moving on."

Actually no, you are wrong. Because as scaling goes, AA is the one that scales the best in the game. In the same way that 1 heavy with a rocket launcher can't hope to do much, 1 heavy with a lock on isn't going to stop an air zerg.
But put 3-4 bursters, and even if 50+ aircrafts come, they will just all get massacred really hard, and there's just about nothing you can do about it as an aircraft.

O.O That's actually a well known fact... I'm surprised that's what bothered you.

Wat? 3-4 bursters would "massacre" 50 ESF/Libs?


Sh*tter suspicions confirmed, I'm done with this thread until your epic Skyguard video is released.
LMAO

If 4 busters fire at 1 aircraft it's a 4v1, if 4 busters fire at 1 aircraft while other 3 aircraft buddies fire at the busters then it's a 4v4.

Let's put this into infantry terms if it's easier to understand, I have 4 players in a room, if I have a entry team of 4 walk in 1 at a time, their essentially fighting 1v4, if I have all 4 of my guys walk in a once it becomes a 4v4.

The only reason AA scales well is because your focus firing and fight essentially what is a 4v1, even if 50 aircraft come at you 1 at a time, it's 4v1 50 times.

It's the range... the range and how stupid easy it is to use. for instance, 3 heavies with lock on will instagib esf's if they focus fire.
1 burster can usually already push back aircrafts, but if there's more, it becomes an death zone for any aircraft within 300m or so with NO possibility to do anything against it.

Considering how I've yet to see Aircraft fighting other Aircraft if they see a sundie/tank(To the point of ignoring the hovering hostile ESF in order to kill my frantically dodging Lighting), your 'fact' must be based in personal wishes and dreams.

Here's the thing though 9/10 you'll be in an area where there is AA around but it is uncoordinated and it's easy for you to run away. 2 AA sources can destroy an ESF, multiple AA sources can badly hurt or destroy a lib or gal.

The problem is some of our AA tools aren't effective enough or their supposed strength against aircraft is a weakness instead.

ground players are more likely to get farmed by Air then for ground to pull enough AA to be lethal. A2G exists to find people who don't have enough people to be lethal to air and be lethal to ground units at the same time.

2-3 playtesting in any lib is a subjective experience and not representative of the entire playerbase. global stat don't lie, true they can be cherry picked but they don't lie.

Statistics of the entire playerbase always trumps the subjective experience you are clinging to. Our unwillingness to do what you want does not automatically make you right. all it is proof of is your arrogance in thinking because we don't want to play your childish balance game you connect this with it somehow implying that you are right.

It is a fact, and if you go look at any video, you'll notice they all say the same thing. Hell, go in an aircraft yourself, and watch every enemy aircraft in a mile radius target you.

Here's the thing though, I can twist just about any statistics to make me appear like literally one of the best of the bests of Planetside infantry-wise. Am I really that good? No. I'm definetly above average, and hold myself good, but there's players I perfectly know are better than me, and plenty I probably don't know, that are also better than me.

If someone claims something is SO overpowered it can kill dozens of vehicle effortleslly and easily, is near indestructible, and has enough firepower to destroy a whole army in mere seconds, they should be able to back up what they are saying with a minimum of it. I know people saying AA is UP are not pilots because any pilot knows the truth about that. Some might think it's just fine, some OP, but definetly not UP.
So I'm extending an offer. If you're not willing to take it, you're discrediting yourself in my eye. If you don't care, you can just keep on going, knowing that whatever you say will sound like an ignorant's talk to me.

I'm not expecting miracles, in fact I know what I'm expecting. But if the claims of most "AA are UP" players are true, then even as ****** drivers, they should be able to kill a few things.
I'm also welcoming you to try it by the way, the offer's extended to everybody.

There are plenty of people in this thread that are ether ground pounders or fly and do ground pounding and they disagree with you.

stats can be cherry picked as i've said before however unlike a subjective experience you are trying to push posted statistics can be compared to the raw data gathered and collected by oracle of death and dasanfall. you cannot dissect a gameplay video or experience that has be intentionally tampered with to skew the results in one way.

You cannot expect new pilots or gunners to do very well even fi they are lucky enough not to crash.

I'm sorry but the forums don't work they way you want them to. here we deals with statistics and not subjective gameplay experience.

why should i care what you think about me, just because i wont do as you want? the only thing you've done here is discredit yourself.

there's this thing called free will. you choose to be arrogant and think your right because we don't want to be told what to do by someone who does not have a complete grasp on what is proof in a balance discussion.

we exercise our free will in disagreeing both with your ideas and your desire to tell us what to do in order to validate your subjective 'evidence' for balance.

Comparing the effectiveness of AA vs. air itself, it's a little bonkers.

TO PREFACE: I am NOT a pilot. My entire aircraft experience comes from gunning in larger aircraft (mostly a Galaxy) while a friend of mine pilots it (he's far better than I am with flying, and I really have no need/want to even try flying.)

However, as a frequent Skyguard operator, I can say that, the ENTIRE effectiveness of the Skyguard is determined not at all by the operator, but, rather, by the enemy.

Sure, 34 shots drops an ESF.

Sure, 95-ish shots drops a Liberator.

And, yes, 195-ish shots will drop a Galaxy.

Assuming Gods-like perfect accuracy on the part of the Skyguard operator, these are reasonable numbers... until you get a pilot with even half a brain in his head. Performing a split-S on ANY of these aircraft, even with the lumbering Galaxy will throw off a few of these shots, and ESF's in particular are prone to using Afterburner's to simply LEAVE the area. Even the rare Liberator with Afterburner's will do this. It totally and entirely reinforces the 'deterrent' method of Skyguards, rather than a hard counter.

This is made EVEN WORSE by actual dedicated tank-busting aircraft (M18 Rotary Mosquitos, M30 Mustang - H Reavers, and Hailstorm Scythes), because they can rip your Skyguard to pieces before you can flak them out of the air, assuming they're stupid and take you head on, in a flat trajectory. EVERY SINGLE Liberator gun can also do this (even the humble AP30 Shredder), and Galaxies... well, they're Galaxies. It's usually an absolute miracle for a dedicated gunning Galaxy to be dropped by a lone Skyguard before the Skyguard eats it entirely.

From a gunner's standpoint, it seems rather bonkers that it takes three OR MORE Skyguards to be as effective to a single aircraft as a single aircraft is to the Skyguard. Granted, those three Skyguards, once again assuming a perfect world-scenario where all three gunners are spot on, are an absolutely terrifying force to be reckoned with to unfriendly skies... but this is easily solved by a single competant Liberator, or pretty much anything on the ground. This fact, and this alone, seems a little borked.

Basically, in essense... AA-capabilities are really, really screwy. You're trading a main function of something, for a gimmick that, 90% of the time, doesn't do anything but DELAY a threat. Sure, in numbers, it works great... but the same can be said of anything (six-man Beamer squads, anyone?)

Keep in mind... all of this is opinion, from someone who has (somehow) gotten around 730-ish kills in a Skyguard, another 200 or so in Burster MAX's... and pretty much nothing in Aircraft save for errant AA-Galaxy runs for lolz. So take it as you will.

Here's the thing though; I'm not looking for approval, but since your posting here, not taking me up on my offer, I understand you are looking for - my - approval, consciously or subcounsciouly. And since you know if you try the method I'm suggesting I will be proven right, you want to try to convince me otherwise, once again to get the so sought approval.

I'm not going to do a psychology course, but I already said my points. I can very well get the raw data from dasanfall and make myself look way better than I am. It's not only about cherry picking, but about relevance of a certain statistics, and how biaised/unbiaised it is.

On this note, it's 1:45 over here so I'm going to sleep. Don't expect any answer before tommrow morning;
Have a good one!

this is interesting. you try and try as much as you can and after all of it you've convinced no-one that a subjective experience is valid proof over publicly accessible statistics that can be dissected and instead you attempt to redirect discussion from the subject at hand to assumptions about another poster.


You can make yourself look awesome as much as you like with cherry picked stats. because people like ColonelChingles will look up the public stats and expose your cherry picking for what it is for all to see.

that's what makes the difference between proof that can be verified and subjective 'proof'.

subjective 'evidence' cannot be independently examined for alterations made to skew results.

That is why your method of proving balance is flawed, invalid and not accepted as proof on the forums.

Honestly at this point I'm leaning towards the explanation that this is all some bizarre plot by Jawarisin to get all of us to fly aimlessly around for hours just so the KPH/VKPH/AKPH stats of Liberators drop. And then after 10 years or so of this nefarious strategy, Jawarisin can finally make a case that Liberators are only twice as effective at all roles when compared to Skyguards.

Because he certainly doesn't have a shred of evidence now.

/facepalm..
Flying solo with a lib I've lasted far longer than 1 min. (not my lib as indicated)..
On Hossin, tree galore, flying below tree-top level.
Now, of course I landed every "run" and repaired it.

How about the dalton instead? Byebye lightning, from far beyond 200m too.

But hell, why not, 200m range, Tankbuster vs skyguard.
Tankbuster has extra magsize, for 44 rounds/mag.
Skyguard has max reload speed, for 2.5 sec reload.
In our hypothetical scenario, our liberator is stationary at 200m. (terrible)
Tankbuster rpm is actually 600 rpm.
At 200m, the damage from 1 tankbuster round is: 334- (200-50)*(334-143)/(300-50)=219.4 Sorry, but we'll presume 220 damage/shot.

Run 1:
Lib attacks lightning from the front. (/facepalm).
44*220*(1-0.55)*(1-0.65) =1524.6 The 0.55 is the lightnings resistance vs the tankbuster, the 0.65 is the frontal armor.
A lightning has 3000 HP. Per above, in two mags, the lightning should be dead. (we're assuming 100% accuracy on both sides; which is admittedly difficult with a tankbuster at 200m. But, you created a "static engagement, so..).
Two mags: 44/600*60=4.4seconds firing/mag. +3.5s reload. 8.8+3.5=12.3 seconds.

Skyguard shoots back:
60 dmg/shot, lib has 35% dmg resistance. 39 dmg/shot.
Mag 1 does 70*39=2730 dmg.
this takes 70/480*60=8.75 seconds.
Reload: 2.5 seconds.
11.25 seconds have past.
Oh dear.. I'm afraid he won't be able to expend his second mag.
Now, with fire suppression, the engagement can end with the lightning winning, but if the lightning has fire suppression, so should the lib have.


Run 2:
In this scenario, the lib has brough composite, vs those pesky flak sources (and vs those tank rounds!). The lib is also engaging the lightning from behind.
According to the wiki, max composite increases flak resistance by 10%.
Lib opens fire:
44*220*(1-0.55)*(1-0.32)=2962. Oh dear..
4.4s, 3.5s reload, and we'll say, one more sec of firing. 8.9 seconds.

Skyguard: 60 dmg/shot, 45% dmg resistance. 33 dmg/shot.
Well, 1 mag:
70*33=2310
Lib escapes with over 50% health remaining.


Now, that is with the CLOSE RANGE weapon, without using the belly gun. Against it's counter.

Not my vid.. recommended viewing.
That is 1 outfit vs another, with prior warning of the incoming air zerg.
If you look real closely (/sarcasm ) you might be able to spot some AA. As a hint, just look at the amount of maxes in the squad.
End result: a zephyr column can pound any armor or infantry zerg into oblivion, despite your ridiculous posts.

Oh, and those people are co-ordinated at least a bit, orders are given not to bunch up, maxes try to hide indoors etc. Because everything outside is just zephyred away.
I'm not even sure there were 50 aircraft in that vid, but we'll presume so for your amusement.

1

i'm an AA-wielding mudjahheddin lurking in the shadows and waiting for american/soviet invader aircraft to pass by....



so consider yourselves warned you red/blue flyboys