MAX balance is STILL messed up.

Im making this topic in order to show just how bad the basic balance is between MAXes all thanks to niche shotguns being forced on NC while TR and VS get to have non niche HMGs. With Higby saying recently that MAXes are due for another pass. This is the best time to bring this data back to the front page.

-Note-

You will not have all the information needed if you do not go to this link or the links within it. This contains all of my data and math I base everything off of with the discussions about them a year and half ago.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/

First Im going to list my test results and the current stats for MAX AI weapons.

NC MAX

• Scattercannon

Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:2.945s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 17, 17, 16 (16.66 average)
15m- 36, 34, 40 (36.66 average)
20m- 72

• Hacksaw

Max Damage:125x6 before 10m
Min Damage:45x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.2s
Long Reload:4s
Fire Rate:209

MAX v MAX
0m- 14
10m- 28, 24, 24 (25.33 average)
15m- 56, 60 (58 average)
20m- 116

• Grinder

Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.4s
Long Reload:4.3s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 20, 20, 20 (20 average)
15m- 42, 48 (45 average)
20m- 92

Mattock
Max Damage:112x6 before 12m
Min Damage:70x6 after 30m
Damage Drop:2.1
Short Reload:3s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 15
10m- 16-17
15m- 24, 20, 22, 22 (22 average)
20m- 28, 30, 32 (30 average)


TR MAX

• Heavy C

Max Damage: 143 before 10m
Min Damage: 125 after 65m
Damage Drop: .32
Short Reload: 2.4s
Long Reload: 3s
Fire Rate: 400

MAX v MAX
0m- 69
10m- 68, 78, 70 (72 average)
20m- 117, 110, 120 (115.66 average)
30m- 178, 188, 170 (178.66 average)

• Onslaught

Max Damage: 120 before 10m
Min Damage: 100 after 50m
Damage Drop: .5
Short Reload: 2.5s
Long Reload: 3s
Fire Rate: 492

MAX vMAX
0m- 80
10m- 80, 88, 84 (84 average)
20m- 130, 120, 156, 134 (135 average)
30m- 190, 208, 180 (192.66 average)

• Mutilator

Max Damage: 143 before 10m
Min Damage: 125 after 65m
Damage Drop: .32
Short Reload: 2.4s
Long Reload: 3.4s
Fire Rate: 400

MAX v MAX
0m- 69
10m- 68, 70, 72 (70 average)
20m- 122, 116, 138 (125.33 average)
30m- 162, 140, 192 (164.66 average)

• Mercy

Damage: 125
Short Reload: 2.6s
Long Reload: 3s
Fire Rate: 426

MAX v MAX
0m- 80
10m- 76, 78, 72 (75.33 average)
20m- 110, 100, 106, 110 (106.5 average)
30m- 142, 132, 134 (136 average)


VS MAX

• Quasar

Max Damage: 167 before 10m
Min Damage: 143 after 75m
Damage Drop: .36
Short Reload: 2.1s
Long Reload: 2.8s
Fire rate: 337

MAX v MAX
0m- 59
10m- 58, 62, 60 (60 average)
20m- 104, 100, 86, 88 (94.5 average)
30m- 122, 140, 126 (129.33 average)

• Nebula

Max Damage: 143 before 10m
Min Damage: 112 after 50m
Damage Drop: .77
Short Reload: 2.3s
Long Reload: 2.6s
Fire Rate: 426

MAX v MAX
0m- 69
10m- 72, 68, 70 (70 average)
20m- 100, 108, 100 (102.66 average)
30m- 148, 180, 188 (172 average)

• Cosmos

Max Damage: 167 before 10m
Min Damage: 143 after 75m
Damage Drop: .36
Short Reload: 2.1s
Long Reload: 3.1s
Fire Rate: 337

MAX v MAX
0m- 59
10m- 56, 60, 62 (59.33 average)
20m- 96, 106, 100 (100.66 average)
30m- 156, 128, 144, 128, 124 (136 average)

• Blueshift

Max Damage: 143 before 10m
Min Damage: 10 after 75m
Damage Drop: 2.04
Short Reload: 2.3s
Long Reload: 2.8s
Fire Rate: 366

MAX v MAX
0m- 69
10m- 68, 72, 72 (70.66 average)
20m- 80, 80, 80, (80 average)
30m- 112, 120, 104 (112 average)

Now Im going to get the MAX v MAX TTKs for the weapons based on those tests found within the links and using current stats. Only long reload times will be used and no cert options are accounted for. The math used is.

RPM * 60 * 2 = DRPS (Dual Rounds Per Second)

Bullets fired / DRPS = Fire Time + reload time/s = TTK

The order of the numbers are the same as above to save screen space from typing all the names out. The order is Stock, High RPM, Extra Ammo, Tight Aim.

NC MAX TTKs

0m- 5.96 / 6 / 2.16 / 6.3

10m- 6.57 / 11.63 / 7.63 / 6.55

15m- 17.51 / 24.32 / 16.1 / 7.46

20m- 31 / 52.65 / 35.33 / 12.6

TR MAX TTKs

0m- 5.17 / 4.87 / 5.17 / 5.63

10m- 5.4 / 5.12 / 5.25 / 5.3

20m- 8.67 / 11.23 / 9.39 / 10.5

30m- 16.39 / 14.74 / 12.34 / 12.57

VS MAX TTKs

0m- 5.25 / 4.15 / 5.25 / 5.65

10m- 5.34 / 4.92 / 5.28 / 5.79

20m- 8.41 / 9.82 / 8.96 / 6.55

30m- 14.31 / 14.71 / 12.1 / 11.98

And Im not going to bother with DPS, miss %, or anything else right now like I did in the past topic, no reason to do it. But what I still see in this shows that NC MAXes are just the worst in everything but for Grinders with no certs. There is no chance for a NC MAX to win a MAX v MAX fight but for a single case and this is perfect conditions. In the chaos of live gameplay everyone will be doing worse!

With certs a NC MAX still have problems thanks to TR and VS MAXes being able to use the 500-1,000 certs NC puts into extended mags into things like armor that is almost a hard counter to extended mags. TR/VS MAXes can even go on a budget and buy only a 250 cert AI weapon and use the 750-1,750 saved certs that would have went to weapons on armor before talking about the 500-1,000 certs for extended mags. How the hell is this suppose to be fair? A MAX that can't fight others MAXes has no right to be called a MAX. And if the NC MAX uses slugs, that is another 150-300 spare certs for TR/VS MAXes while RUINING the NC MAXes ability to fight other MAXes even more from lack of damage!

There are reasons that NC MAXes are pulled less and are only used by higher BR levels than any other. Shotguns SUCK on a MAX and this shows in other areas such as NC being last in alert wins. This is very much a reason for that. NC pulls less MAXes and what MAXes we do pull are often much weaker in the basics, meaning that NC has to fight more MAXes with less options over time and that means more lost fights/alerts.

Im also going to try and counter the KPU and KPH data that will be posted. NC MAXes don't get pulled but for the exact fights they are good in and that inflates their stats. If other factions did only that they would show the same. Plus there is the fact that you are trying to compare the same stats for Shotguns and HMGs. 2 weapons types that share NOTHING with each other! They shouldn't have the same stats to start with and thanks to that alone.

Im out of time or Id type out more. But Im going to leave with this one thing. Something that would have stopped all of this and brought balance within days. NS MAX AI weapons. A shotguns and a HMG. Reuse Flash weapon models and you have 2 weapons that EVERYONE that plays MAX would use across all factions. Less work than making 3 weapons custom made for the factions and it fixes so damn much. But no. MAXes don't even get player studio items.

MAXes are fine.

Stats on this page: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/

Mattocks have highest average kills per hour.

I'm sorry. I'm finding it impossible to interpret your data. The formatting, limited though I know it is, is getting in the way of the numbers. Please don't extrapolate data from a year and a half ago. The formulates probably have not changd, but please ensure that all up to date information is used.

Also, for the purposes of sensible discussion, please don't compare AI weapons when invoking MAX versus MAX encounters. You should be using your Falcons or Ravens for those.

Rock, Paper, Scissors?

Certain MAXes do better than others in different situations and there is no reason to artificially concoct a MAX vs MAX scenario as though they are battling each other in a vacuum without any other variables involved (i.e. other players, terrain, distance, etc.).

My opinion.

you always need 2 NC MAXes to cover each other during reloading.

max performance will vary based on weapon and which armor you select. if you are using a near stock NC max with AI weapons an no armor or kinetic armor and run into my pounder max you will lose unless i am already damaged. because i'll get direct hits while backing up to try and degrade your damage against me.

I covered that in the OP and likely in the 9 pages from a year and a half ago. You can not use the same data in comparing weapons that have nothing in common. Weapons that have nothing in common SHOULD have nothing in common and should not have the same normals for stats. Add that to NC MAXes having the least uniques, highest average BR, and some of the least total number of hours used then you'd see that the stats would be further out of whack.

How can you expect to use the same data when what you are comparing has nothing in common with each other? Yet even with NC having shotguns, their TTKs for MAXes is still damn never any better than HMGs even though shotguns give up everything for their niche. It takes 500-1000 certs after buying weapons for a NC MAX to get its niche, by then TR/VS MAXes have those same certs to have a hard counter for that niche while giving up nothing with having the option to be on a budget and still be viable.

The reason I made this topic again was to update it with current data. The old topic had a game update that changed the reload times for Scattercannon, Quasar, Blueshift, Cosmos, Mutilator, and Onslaught and changed the damage drop starting for Mattocks from 10m to 12m. If I didn't **** up i used current data as no other change was done since then to MAX AI weapons without needing to use new tests. The tests shown in the links within the link of the OP was only to get bullet to kill numbers for certain ranges on certain targets to let the game account for range, target size, COF, pellet spread, and target Hp with resistances instead of basing everything off of cold numbers. Damage values didn't change but for Mattocks and I re-did the tests for that on page 9 of the link in the OP.

And AV weapons should not be used as a main weapon in AI roles, ever. MAXes are in a way vehicles from having a cost and terminal only spawning but they are an infantry class to be used around infantry and to support infantry in infantry areas. Gen 1 MAX AV weapons can be called anti-MAX weapons but they should not be a normal for AI roles. TR/VS MAX AI weapons are perfectly fine at dealing with MAXes and infantry within the same room and at any range you may find them within a base be it indoors, around a courtyard, or across a street. NC MAXes have to make hard choices in their targets and shotguns can't be used in anything but indoor areas or they become powerless as the damage drop over range added with COF and pellet spreads out right murders any possible damage.

For the data being a bit unreadable. I can't do much with it. The bulk of it, all of the weapon stats and shot to kill numbers can be ignored for the most part. I typed them out to redo the math for current stats. Focus on the TTK numbers and you should find my main point. That being, without certs NC MAXes are ****** and with certs NC MAXes are ****** but not as much.

The foundation of my thinking is this. If things are off in perfect conditions, then they will never be any better and get only worse outside of perfect conditions.

Like stacking blocks. The more blocks you add the less stable the tower becomes as every little variable is added. You have to have a foundation and without a solid foundation you can't build anything. Every single variable you can think of is going to be added to all MAXes at any or all times. Live gameplay is pure chaos but it is a fair chaos as everything happens to everyone over time. If one faction has the room to spare and adjust for the chaos of live gameplay but another doesn't then it will always end the same. The faction with unstable foundations falling first. This boils to the niche and general use of shotguns and HMGs. Shotguns will fail to do their jobs first when the variables start adding on as they have the most weaknesses by default in order to have their niche, even though shotguns don't even get their niche till well after getting certs crammed into their *** all while keeping every single weakness.

Like I said just above this. The chaos of live gameplay is fair in how it effects everyone. If the basics aren't good then adding chaos only makes the already there flaws that much worse.

The reason not to bother with any of that is because you don't have a contained environment with moving targets simulated to mimic actual Netcode hitregistry (esp laggy flying ones who already dropped a brick on their own client 2 seconds ago). But for some reason in MAX vs. MAX, I seem to win more of those fights than I lose. ...completely anecdotable "raven-lover" evidence and doesn't contribute much I know. But it seems to me that most of the TR still haven't embraced the OP'ness of Pounders and most of the MAXes I beat were either low BR's or running Blueshifts or something that's best for dealing with pesky C4-fairies. ....and who can blame them? Show me a VS Max running Duel Comets and an LA will show you an instantly dead MAX. Even their Vortexers are at major risk.

The whole point of this is: MAX vs MAX isn't the biggest threat to MAXes. It's the overabundance of overly versatile HA's and the over-oportunism of LA's in the area who swarm to your location like flies to dookey the instant some punk Spots your location on the minimap (hence why I'm always running the Spotter Notification implant when I pull MAX).

That there needs to be some semblance of balance regarding maxes is a mistaken assumption on your part.
The Out-Of-Balance is in your head.

All factions have to deal with C4 equally. All factions have to deal with HA playing rocket primary. All factions face the same odds in any given fight. The only things that don't fit this rule is true ES gear. Not the near carbon copy weapons that have their only differences being a number offset like the vast majority of infantry weapons. True ES gear are things like Phoenix, Jackhammer, Lancer, Lasher, MCG, Striker, AI and AV secondary vehicle weapons, AI ESF noseguns, and MAX AV weapons that can really stand out from either being different weapon types or being so much apart that they might as well be another weapon type. Everything else isn't ES as there is a near carbon copy for the other 2 factions but for MBT main weapons and MAX AI weapons.

The reason those 2 things don't fit in either is thanks to 1 faction having a unique trait when the other 2 share near copies. MBTs, the Prowlers main cannon is nothing like NC or VS cannons but the NC/VS main cannons are almost copies but for a number change, plus 2 MBTs are old fashion tanks and the 3rd is a hovercraft. MAX AI weapons don't fit either because NC weapons are shotguns while TR/VS weapons are both HMGs and none of the 3 have any options outside of that.

Hate to say it but vehicles only do so much to take over bases. They can lock a spawn but they can not enter buildings and nor can they fight over cap points. Not anymore at least, plus most vehicles can miss match between ES and NS weapons to custom fit to a role where needed. That leaves MAX AI weapons as the main ES oddball that will effect a fight more than anything else. What faction is forced into a niche without options? NC. What faction tends to always be dead last in any event including WDS or the average alert? NC.

What else is there that stands out to account for NC being the majority looser in events if not their MAX? I don't see or can think of anything else ES but the Vanguard. Yet there are options to get around that with using Lightnings, Sunderers, Harassers, or any other vehicle in the game. If not the MAX, then what? SOMETHING is making NC loose. That points to a balance offset and MAXes look a lot like a big factor in that to me as they are the one thing in the game that doesn't have any options to speak of.

MAXes are almost pure ES but for punching some fool in the face and the fact that one and only one faction has a non-shared and forced weapon type. EVERYTHING else has either "ES" versions or flat out NS weapons as an option. MAXes also play one of the greatest roles in infantry combat by being the main stalemate breaker outside of zerging.

And my tax returns still aren't here, what else is new!?
By my beard... sigh.

Not saying the OP is right or wrong, but are you saying that MAXes shouldn't be balanced?

Id be happy to be proved wrong. It just hasn't happened yet and I want it happen to be honest. I want a dev or another dedicated player to come in here and post something to prove me wrong so that Id have a good debate and maybe figure out what the hell is wrong with the NC and why they tend be in last place. Someone has to loose, that just happens to be NC on a consistent base and that points to something being wrong with MAXes being the main thing I can think of for a reason to that.

I've always thought it would be nice if they gave NC MAX greater HP, and boosted VS MAX strafe speed and TR MAX sprint speed. It would add a nice bit of ES that could easily be used to counter any dip in performance. NC MAX not doing quite as well? Give it a touch more HP. TR underperforming? Give it better acceleration. Things like that would be a pretty nice addition, I think.

MAX abilities do that already. Or that was the reason they was made. NC gets a shield that gives more tanking power. TR gets (read in epic echoing voice) DAKKA (back to normal) from lockdown. VS gets mobility from ZOE. The 3 abilities also give negatives to counter the buffs but, ZOE was turned to **** even though it was rightfully so it got a nerf, the shield is still bugged to bleed explosive damage and can flat out remove ammo from your pool if you use it to fast over reloads, and lockdown - - - Lockdown is in a nice place from my thinking. Easy to get flanked and killed but use it right and it gives nothing but possible power.

Plus giving the MAXes those buffs by default would do more harm than good and it just doesn't fit how they look like MBTs. Vanguards are big ******* tanks, Prowlers are slimmed and streamlined, and Magriders are hovercraft. They fit their perks in looks and how they feel. MAXes, well. NC MAX suits don't even cover the user and is clearly just an old exo-suit deathtrap with plates welded on. TR MAXes cover the entire body but joints and are very well made for combat. VS MAXes are super soldiers by the lore without much armor to speak of and simply have bio-engineered hardened skin. If anything TR MAXes would have the best HP then VS, then NC going by the lore and how the MAXes look.

All MAXes really need are options. Ability options need tuning (for NC and VS at least) but are good as is. AV has good options from Gen 1 being a real choice with Gen 2, again some need some tuning so they don't go outside of their intended roles. AA, is just horrid in options even though Bursters make it so you don't need them. But AI, there is not that many options to break out of ES niches or weaknesses. Put out 2 NS AI weapons for MAXes, or make 3 weapons that are each custom made for a factions needed area and make to that factions flavor, and MAXes get put in a good place for a long while. In my eyes it takes less time and effort to make 2 weapons and tune them to neutral flavors than 3 weapons that each need their own flavor and their own tuning.

Even though it would be more bad-*** to have the 3 faction weapons. ES stuff tends to be a reason for main balance problems if history is anything to go on and MAXes have more ES focus than anything in the game. For a reason of paying homage to PS1 yes, but this is a game and there needs to be a balance to all things. Jamming shotguns and HMGs into the same boat and saying "it will work it self out" isn't going to bring any balance without one being OP in some areas just so it can be on same(ish) grounds in others.

All those numbers require, from my brain, computation.
That just is not possible.
Ask my Math Teacher.
F.

There is no way "MAX" and "balance" can be used in one sentence with a serious face.

The only way they can ever be balanced is if they get the "LA revamp" treatment - scrapped and forgotten like it never meant to be.

Conflict of interest detected. You don't like MAXes because they are counter to your preferred playstyle.

edit: Game is too random. Random LA flies from here, random infiltrator sniper from there etc etc. Taking MAX suit is protection against that randomness. As a drawback you can't play super-aggressively like you can with regular infantry because dieing in a MAX costs more than just time.

Currently you can spawn one MAX every 9 minutes. I'd increase MAX resource cost to full 750 so you can spawn one every 15 minutes and that would be enough. MAXes have their place in the game and removing them would make the game even more of a twitch based shooter than it already is.

I don't like MAX because they're OP bull **** that has no place in the game and leads only to frustration.

They're fun addition and should definitely remain as infantry's AA and AV options, but AI MAXes? **** them with all might.

b b b b but NC maxes can kill 0.14 seconds faster!
thats the usual response to try to defend TR/VS having 900% larger ammo stores,
300% longer sustained fire and actually having higher DPS when you factor in sustain and hilaaaaaaariously long NC reload times.)

also in before "RAVENZ OP", yes they are, and they should be nerfed, but nc need an AI weapon with sustain to replace it.