Simple physics for why 0.75 ADS is not OP

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Yuukikun, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. Imij


    Meh. I say lose the .75 because all the QQers are a bunch of babies. Then buff the Orion to be more accurate (the "VS' trait)... let's see the whining then.

    Get good. Stop complaining. Play the game. Three simple steps to improve your level of fun in this game.
  2. Sossen


    Used to be TR hate on this forum, and for a while it was scatmax hate. Usually, the hate isn't irrational. I'll be the first one to say that TR used to be incredibly OP during the Striker era. The Marauder was also just a better fury. I still think that the repeater is too good in the role that secondaries are usually employed. Lots of other things require small tweaks (The Butcher requiring a small buff, I might add). I play all three factions and I wouldn't want to see any side OP in any way, asymmetrical balance aside.

    I'm all for diversity, I wouldn't want the Orion to either be worse than any other LMG or more generic than it currently is. I just feel that the .75 ADS in combination with its other traits make it a superior weapon. I'm not even saying that the .75 ADS should be removed, I enjoy it as a fun tweak to an otherwise slow class. However, something has to give. The SVA-88 is perfect the way it is right now, even though it has .75 ADS.


    I'm not saying it is OP, I'm just saying that it is an immense advantage and that it is undervalued in the current system. Certain traits are valued a certain way according to how the team has decided to balance the weapons, but they currently value .75 ADS the same as a 20% reduction in hipfire COF while standing and moving (less in other positions) and access to soft point ammunition (MSW-R with advanced laser sight compared to Orion with laser sight).
  3. Xasapis

    Perhaps they merely give it as much value as it deserves. How many people actually take proper advantage of that trait as opposed to how many can theoretically take advantage?
  4. Sossen


    Well, that is part of the reason why it shouldn't be the starting weapon. That same point is why the SAW (with its awful vertical recoil but negligible horizontal recoil) is so good for some players and absolute crap for beginners, and why it is the wrong starting weapon.
  5. toxs

    .75 is the best
  6. Yuukikun


    wtf? you obviously didn't understand my post then. I said that if both parties are moving, without changing direction, no matter what the movement speed is, it's the same for both parties and thus the tracking is the same difficulty and the only change between the 2 parties is that one has to rotate clockwise and the other counter clockwise (because the majority of people whining about it are whining about the fact that 0.75 is harder to track than 0.5 because they have to move their mouse that much faster (nothing to do with the change of directions, but i'm developing on it just below)).

    Then my last paragraph is like someone asking me, why even moving if the relative speed is the same but only the person actually moving in game loses the accuracy due to the movement accuracy mechanic. And then i explain how changing direction makes a difference, which means any person who changed direction against someone who doesn't will get an advantage.

    The ''control of direction change'' you are bringing in is the time it takes for your hit box to leave the enemy's line of fire (aka damage source), which is different depending on each player's individual speed, but in the case of 2m/s and 3m/s, and the size of the player body, the difference is so small that it is not worth taking it into account, because any other difference happening in game will immediately counter balance it, such as, who fired first, who is the most accurate, who has the highest headshot rate, who changed direction the most, and countless more variables that have alot more than enough influence on the result of the fight to cancel out completely the difference in time needed to get out of the line of fire, and even more in competitive play where the hit box is the head, which is way smaller.

    I already calculated this with another post, which gives these results (this is for the body)

    And now if you consider that when a player changes direction the second one KEEPS moving his aim to that initial direction until he realizes he changed direction, you have to take the relative speed to make this calculations. So now you have different cases for each player, because the player going fastest is already moving his aim 0.25 to the opposite direction. The difference for him is 1.0 speed, while the one for the other player is aiming 0.25 in the same direction and then the 0.75 goes away from the stream at 1.5 speed. If we do calculations, 0.25m/(2*2*1.5) - 0.25m/(2*2*1) we have a difference of |0.04166 - 0.06| which is a difference of 0.01833 seconds faster. You would never be able to notice it even if you knew it was there, and i don't know any gun firing 52 bullets per second in planetside which would be the only way to actually possibly lose an extra bullet when this happens.

    But then again, in your 1 in a billion chance where you can find someone that has the exact same stats, and plays exactly the same as the stats say (because people have average stats but have a good/bad day), use weapons that have the same RoF, accuracy, damage, ammo count, both of you are already in movement when you both start firing at the exact time it takes for the first bullet to land (because this way it can still be a trade even if one dies first) of a second, both start with full HP, full shield, full ability shield, both are HA, one of you has 0.75, the other has 0.5 ADS movement speed, both of you are in ADS all the way, both of you fire at the same rate (burst fire makes this impossible, or then you will lose because the other fired faster than you), the epic 1v1 fight is not interupted, there is no flinch (which there is on live server which almost 100% garantees the first person to land a headshot to win the duel), there is no ground shake caused by vehicles, both of you get the same random left right recoils, both of you get the same cof spread, because you know, all the points i just stated have a lot more chance of making you miss a bullet/lose the engagement and will cancel out the probability of 0.01833/(1/(RPM/60))% chance of losing an extra bullet if both players change direction once (and that's only if they both change one after the other with at least 0.06 seconds of interval because if it's anything smaller than that, the ''huge advantage'' will be even smaller)

    In other words, you've probably never had a death where that ''advantage''s existence is what made the difference between a win and a loss (mainly because there is no other LMG like the orion/NS15-M that is an exact copy of them minus the 0.25 ADS speed difference and the combination of the probabilities of everything i just mentioned above + all the ones i didn't even mention is probably a lot lower than one in the total amount of deaths you have)

    It's like if you complained that i was a son of a rich because i had a winning lottery ticket of last year. Even though it says i am richer on it, i can't change it for money anways.
  7. Yuukikun

    If you're trying to include me in your blind judgement, know that the last time i played VS HA was to auraxium the Lasher, and this has been before the directives update. I'm actually maining NC now too.
  8. Sossen


    Not necessarily you, just all the other threads.
  9. Stigma

    The OP makes a long rambling explanation of how motion is relative but forgets all about the very simple fact that the players are in control of their own motions. When you juke left and right you KNOW that you are doing this and thus you can adjust your aim at the same time with much greater ease. it is in no way the same as reacting to the movements of a target that is largely random/unpredictable. Adjusting your aim to compensate for your own movements is orders of magnitude faster and easier than adjusting to the movements of your opponent. You can remove all of the human reaction speed delay from the equation for example.

    I mean, this should be pretty obvious... If the OP were right then only relative speed is relevant and if you had a gun with 4x ADS (4 times normal movement walk speed while ADS) then according to the OP this would be just as balanced as anything else - but come on - that's just obviously not the case. Keeping your aim on the enemy would be marginally harder for the user, while the enemy would have to constantly react and adjust to very large and fast movements and miss a lot more as a result.

    Have you ever shot at a stationary target while ADAD'ing? That's pretty damn easy isn't it.... that's the same sort of thing. According to OP it would be just as easy for both parties to hit eachother - but anyone worth their salt knows that this isn't remotely the case...

    EDIT: And... to further add to this the fact that bullets have traveltime adds even more problems for the slower moving entity. In the real world bullets may inherit the relative speed of the gun, but in game it doesn't - it is relative to the stationary world - meaning that a 10x speed target shooting at a 0x speed target only has to put the aim on the target and shoot for a garantueed hit, while the stationary target has to not only predict the movement of the enemy but also calculate the correct lead (and obviously faster speeds = larger lead = larger chance of miscalculating). To be Clear - In the real world of real physics both players would have to lead, but this isn't the case in the game.

    Even in a case where 2 Equal players were shooting at eachother and weren't in control/aware of their own movements (and thus being unable to take advantage of that obvious predictive advantage) the stationary player would still have a vastly harder time of hitting the fast-moving one by virtue of having the added burden of having to calculate lead correctly while the fast moving one only has to match the target to the crosshairs and fire.

    In short this hypothesis is bunk and hasn't been thought through very well at all. It smacks of confirmation bias.

    -Stigma
  10. Ceiu


  11. WTSherman

    There's also the fact that, due to how this game's animations and netcode work, what you see on your screen is not what your opponent sees on theirs.

    For some weird reason, when other people look at you in PS2 you appear to be moving (and changing directions) much faster than you see on your own screen. Someone made a video of it a while back (back when you could strafe about as fast as you could run):



    Notice how the strafing guy on the left is moving much faster than the strafing guy on the right. They're the same person recorded through different screens, because PS2's netcode is weird.
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  12. BobSanders123

  13. ATRA_Wampa-One

    And since it's client side hit detection as long as you can hit where that person is on your screen you'll still hit him.
  14. FrozenCustard

    So let's put it this way, by that logic your just as good off standing still as you are strafing, so why do you think all good players don't stand still and instead strafe? Well that is because movement is key on staying alive, and any extra movement gives you a significant advantage in the hands of someone who can exploit it.
  15. FrozenCustard

    Also lag and hit detection also gives an edge.
  16. WTSherman

    The point is that doing so is more difficult for the person moving slower than for the person moving faster, because the faster you are moving the more pronounced the netcode mis-match is.

    This means you will be moving significantly faster on their screen than you see on your own, plus the movement will be more erratic (=harder to lead) due to wonky netcode extrapolation.

    This is also related to why ZOE's strafe speed got nerfed.
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  17. Haquim

    Im not here for the "OP" argument, I just like to discuss maths in games. And I usually don't stop before I either found my own error or convinced the other side of theirs.
    I also can't do a TL;DR for this, but I'll mark the important parts.

    Anyway, your model is kinda flawed. Also you used the same formula as me and doubled the movement speed modifier before inserting it. I'll try it with a picture, but since im in a break at work (and horrible at drawing anyway) you'll have to make do with what i can depict with a keyboard.
    First off: < > is supposed to mean 0.25 movement speed in the respective direction
    Player I hast the 0.5 and Player II the 0.75 modifier. The players are depicted as ( I )
    X(I)X and X(II) Is the point the player is aiming at

    ( I ) >> Now the direction change for (I) : << ( I )
    X(II)X >> ----------------------------------------------- X(II)X >>

    X(I)X>>> ---------------------------------------------- X(I)X >>>
    ( II ) >>> ------------------------------------------------ ( II ) >>>

    You will notice that the difference between where player II is aiming at and where player I is moving to is 4 * 0.25 ms , twice the moving players movement speed modifier.

    ( I ) >> Now the direction change for (II) : ( I ) >>
    X(II)X >> ------------------------------------------- X(II)X >>

    X(I)X>>> --------------------------------------------- X(I)X >>>
    ( II ) >>> --------------------------------------- <<< ( II )

    You will notice that the difference between where player I is aiming at and where player II is moving to is 6 * 0.25 ms , twice the moving players movement speed modifier.
    Regarding the formula that means
    0.25m (the distance i assumed needed to travel to leave the enemies crosshair)
    divided by (2 * 2m/s (the movement speed) * 0.5 / 0.75 (the movement speed modifier) )
    Is the time needed to leave the danger zone.

    Also, while the relative speed of the players to each other is always the same, thats not the relevant point.
    The relevant point here is the relative speed to the point where the opponent is aiming at. As long as he's not trying to run you over or got a sticky grenade stuck on him you opponents movement alone will not harm you.

    And another point - you speak of relativity, but you come to your conclusion in absolutes. That is a no-go. That is a simple trick to say the truth while depicting it in the way that supports your own point of view the most.
    The guy with 0.5 mod is gonna get hit for only 0.041 seconds longer than his 0.75 opponent, which is at MOST one bullet....
    It is absolutely correct ( this is using my numbers BTW, not yours - your numbers would be 0.020seconds). But it supports your point SO much more than saying it in a relative way.
    Which sounds like this:
    The player with the 0.5 modifier needs 50% longer to leave the danger zone and is thus hit by 50% more bullets.
    Makes quite a difference, huh?

    And last but not least the conclusion: Who would have thought that the guy with a 50% better modifier might have a 50% advantage over his opponent? Sure, the numbers are pretty low, so in absolutes the difference is miniscule. But in RELATIVE terms the difference is huge.
    I do not think that this difference impacts the game at large, but in the rare case of a duel between equally skilled opponents with otherwise equal weapons this can and propably will decide the victor.

    PS: In my last post there is an error - in Example D the time is 0.08333 seconds, not 0.8333 seconds. The rest is correct.
    Sorry for any inconvenience or confusion my typo might have caused for people following the numbers game.
  18. Schwak

    I guess you probably thought ZOE was fine during the TR/NC's 6 months of hell as well didn't you? Giving only the VS .75 ADS weapons was a mistake whether it is really all in our heads or not. Clearly if everyone goes and plays VS for the Orion and SVA it's a problem. Either give everyone access to .75 ADS LMGs (not the NS15m) or give it to nobody, same goes for the other classes. Movement modifiers should be applied based on weapon type not which faction you are to be honest, then there would be no whining at all. "But Schwak A symmetrical balance is bad for the game", nah, **** you.
  19. Goretzu

    True, but equally the faster you can move the greater the effect and the hard it is to track.

    Its basically why faster drifter jets were very quickly re-nerfed.
  20. Yuukikun

    Fun part is you say that your results are different, but they are the same with 0.04133 and 0.06188 and a diference of around 0.02 which is so small, that even if it's 50% bigger, with in game fire rates the chance of having someone actually miss that extra bullet is less than 1 / 20 (5%) if you consider the average accuracy, and even less than 1/50 if you consider the person aiming for the head hitbox. And that is only if both players have the Exact same aim, hsr, amount of direction changes, same COF spread, same random recoil, same gun stats, etc. My point is not that there is no difference. My point is that the only difference is so minuscule that any other difference will automatically outweight the outcome of the 1v1. It's an advantage that someone cannot use outside of a theoric scenario. I don't even need to calculate any numbers to affirm you that such a scenario has less than 1 in a million chance of even happening. But you're totally right, there is a difference, which i already talked about in my last posts, but it's not a relevant one as soon as you go out of theory. One of the biggest reason this will never happen is mostly the headshot flinch mechanic, which basically gives the win to the first person landing a headshot, and even then, it's random in a random direction so the flinch will most likely favor someone even if both headshot at the exact time.

    PS: i saw your mistake but i know it was just a typo, there's no point in being immature about a typo and trying to use it as an argument. Mostly because i'm glad someone like you takes time to talk like a civilized human instead of throwing insults left and right.