How do people feel about ADADA and bullet travel

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by gibstorm, Oct 5, 2014.

  1. Ceiu

    Considering how often you like to throw around your "game developer" experience/title, it annoys me that I have to explicitly restate my only real concern with ADAD strafing (not to be confused with regular strafing, btw) as it exists now and point out the single most common technical hurdle with real-time multiplayer games: It breaks netcode/extrapolation. On the opponent's screen, the movement of someone abusing ADAD spam is going to vary wildly in direct relation to the latency between the players. See my earlier post which touches on the rubber-banding effect it has on the strafing player's displayed position.

    Aside from that, I think strafing is fine. Stupidly unrealistic and no deeper strategically than choosing to move forward or stand still, but fine nevertheless.
  2. phreec

    Instead of "fixing" ADAD just do it like CS and add tagging i.e. your movement gets slowed down when hit.
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  3. Axehilt


    The fact that my character moves left when I press one button and right when I press another button is not an exploit.
  4. Axehilt


    If there are bugs, then I'm in favor of fixing them. My own experience suggests these bugs are very muted and super rare, because strafing virtually always plays out exactly as I'd expect (if anything it's smoothed out too much and players should wiggle more than they do.)
  5. Alzir

    Oh man, this again. Adad or left arrow right arrow for me is a mainstay of most shooters out there. You can't remove it without annoying half your player base, but it a non issue IMHO. Adapt your aim faster when someone does it to you or just aim dead centre in their travel path, it is a skill to deal with but not a particularly hard one.
  6. DHT#

    No, but if you're doing it intentionally to exploit the limitations in the network code it is. Same thing as the people who have been spamming crouch to try and fall through floors on enemy screens.
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  7. Axehilt


    Thing is, the actual result of those attempts isn't exploitive or buggy 99.9% of the time. Your view on your own screen may drop exceedingly low, but on the enemy's screen you're only occasionally crouching and moving perhaps half as violently as you are on your own screen.

    The intent when I strafe is to strafe. Not to exploit some buggy code, but just to strafe as much as the normal amount of strafing I see other players using (which again, is about half as violent as it is on our own screens, because of all the smoothing the game uses.) It throws off enemy aim a little, but to a lesser degree (due to smoothing) than one would generally expect. Which is why most of the time I choose one of the more accurate stances (stand-ADS or crouch-ADS usually).
  8. gibstorm


    For me the problem is the guess work becomes so great that spraying the body becomes better then controlled shots to the head.

    If you are happy with spray and pray that is fine but I like to reward controled and accuracy. Low rate of fire weapons are also unfairly punished by this compared to a bullet hose
  9. Tuco

    My "skill" macro for Star Trek Online

    • Up x 2
  10. iller

    It's really only an issue while at longer ranges, IE: sniping .... and that's okay really b/c sniping still has a pretty potent TTK. Compare that to Sniping in say Tribes or APB where players can also have pretty surprising acceleration. Those other 2 examples are called hitscan. But you also need to land more shots in less time to get the same kills with them. With a little twitch aim and the Longshot rifles in this game, you can actually get headshots on moving targets. I've gotten quite a few just using the railjack which is the absolute WORST gun to use for getting headshots on moving targets.

    sure, slowing people down is tempting.... but I'd think if they were actually going to bother with that effort, that it would be time and effort much better spent on actually designing objectives and abilities that invite good snipers to be part of the objective play. ...Without inviting every PPA magrider & Spamming Lib in the area to also horn in on the action. That's the more difficult aspect but they were starting to get there with some of the "Warehouse" designs and the elevated platform Bases on Hossin. It's really a debate that should be about "Counterplay", not just raw physics. Things like: ..."your shield absorbs more damage if you're not strafing" ... give people a trade-off buff for NOT always cheesing the hitdetection. --- or another good example: make the Decoy grenade actually summon a moving shooting decoy hologram and while the guy engaging it is strafing left to right like mad, you're already flanked to his side lining up a headshot at the angle he's not prepared for.
  11. AdmiralArcher


    wut.......real weapons have no CoF, its all human error, and considering the soldiers on auraxis are nearly if not superhuman, i think they would have pretty dam good aim
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  12. Xasapis

    CoF merely puts a skill cap to weapons, so that the highest skilled people don't murder everyone and the lower skilled ones have a fighting chance. Besides, soldiers in Auraxis are nerve wrecks from the constant dying and respawning and they can't hold a tea cup without spilling the thing all over due to the shakes.
  13. Demigan

    So you killed two guys who sucked. That doesn't mean I ain't right.
    Also... why the hell weren't you firing? You didn't know he was going to stand still or not. Another thing: there's a difference between standing still tactically to get ahead of your opponent, and standing still because your enemy can't shoot or aim properly.
    Here's some nice questions:
    -At what range do you stop ADAD and start standing still to improve your accuracy? I bet you don't ADAD when you are at 150m+
    -Have you ever tried standing still in a battle to improve your aim? It's a skill that you need to employ at the right time that even in CQC can help you win.
    -what range where you when the shotgun guy tried to kill you? From what I gather shotgun pellets go from 275m/s to 300m/s. Let's assume your character is 0,5m wide and you are strafing at 3m/s. let's try to dodge a shotgun shot at 30m (well beyond shotgun range)
    The shot is dead center, so you need to travel 0,25 meters to dodge (half your body thickness). You are traveling at 3m/s, so you can be safe within 0,083333 seconds.
    The pellets, however, travel at 300m/s and need to travel 30 meters. This means that they get there in 0,1 seconds.
    Phew, just dodged a shotgun shell that was well outside of it's effective range.
    At 300m/s, you need to stand at a minimum of 25 meters (24,99999999 actually) to be able to dodge. So you didn't dodge your enemies shotgun shells, he just didn't aim properly. (or he was firing from beyond effective range) There's a big difference.
    Most small arms weapons, however, have faster travel speeds, from 420m/s (a few stragglers below) to 600+

    At 420m/s you need to stand at minimum 34m distance to be able to dodge a shot straight at the center of your body.
    at 600m/s you need to stand at minimum 50m (49,99999999999) distance to be able to dodge a shot straight at the center of your body.
    At 30m, I already start standing still much more often to get better shots. at 50m I have a clear advantage over someone doing ADAD.

    Read my calculations above, due to latency you already have trouble dodging on time, with the bullet travel it's impossible to dodge a shotgun shell at the center of your body within 25m.
    If you really have such problems with ADAD... improve your aim? I just showed that it's pretty tough to actually dodge anything, so what's left is learning to lead a target, especially an erratic target. Play some good old UT and try to hit a godlike bot with a rocketlauncher, it's basically the same thing only a hundred times harder. These bots do 15 dodgerolls a second in 3 different directions at once.
    Another tip is to improve your trigger discipline. Unlike other easy games, having trigger discipline improves your COF immensely, allowing you to shoot less but hit more. Increase your COF even more by standing still occasionally and you will become much, much better.

    Read my calculations above. Strafing, especially while crouching, doesn't benefit. Imagine how fast you strafe while crouching... 1m/s? that means that if someone shot a shotgun at your core, you would need to be at 90 meters distance to be able to dodge. I don't know what you call that, but I call that "useless dodging".
    Using a Macro destroys any aim you have. If you are moving erratically on your enemies screen, imagine how erratically you are moving... without your control. It's a Macro after all. You'll see your screen move sideways and up and down while your Macro moves you randomly, is that good for your aim? It's easier to lead such a target than be the one using the Macro. There's a reason why people use hold breath on snipers, that's also a random movement of your screen, but much slower and easier than a Macro.
    Seriously, I think there's a ton of people here who are just making stuff up to prove their point.
    As for the people who kill you before their third ADAD iteration. Do they even need to ADAD if they are fast killers? It's no use shouting "but it's unfair!" simply because someone was better than you.
  14. zuka7

    I always get distinct sound from worn AD keys and bullets go left and right. Other keyboards probably make different sounds so I'm not sure.
  15. Desann

    I agree
  16. AdmiralArcher


    nerve? what nerves? its all nanites :)
  17. Makora

    I hate ADAD too. But what I think is the problem with ADAD is not the movement, but the lack of benefit in doing the opposite. There is almost no benefit for you to stop, crouch, ADS and let-a-rip. The only stat that is affected by doing this is your cone of fire. At least as far as I know your recoil is completely unaffected and that is a problem.
    ADAD is effective in closer ranges, which makes it much more noticeable to those who don't like it because damn near every fight happens in close range. If going stationary made your shooting more accurate and stable, and crouching even more so, going ADAD all day erryday might not seem like such a good idea, since you'll be missing more shots then the guy who's not doing the derp-dance.

    EDIT: So to recap: Leave the ADADAD as it is. There are a multitude of "fixes" that would cause the public relations department from SOE to take a baseball bat to the devs.
    However, there is a possible solution by introducing a solid, viable alternative. Hunkering down. Where standing still and crouching especially have a positive effect of recoil, and thus accuracy.
    The result would be that the ADADAD person might dodge more shots, but he's going to miss more then the guy going crouch ADS. So it becomes a contest between two different skill camps, one where movement is priority, and the other where aim is priority.
  18. Ceiu

    That's, unfortunately, not how multiplayer games work -- especially PS2. Try going in game and mashing crouch as quickly as you can (don't worry about firing just yet). You'll note that you don't actually crouch and your camera's movement is minimal (at least, compared to a full crouch). That's because there's an entire animation to go through.
    However, your opponent doesn't have the benefit of zero-latency input response. What they see is an extrapolation of what your client tells them. You crouch and uncrouch at 30hz, but even under optimal conditions there's a 100ms+ delay before your opponent gets the message. So, to make it not look choppy as hell, the game predicts the opponent until it hears otherwise. While you've returned to a full stand almost immediately, your opponent has been looking at the prediction of you continuing to crouch. Then, a message comes through that says "just kidding, they're still standing," and snaps them back to a full stand*.
    The same works for ADAD spamming. You see yourself moving only one or two steps side-to-side, but your opponent sees two or three followed by a quick snap the other way.

    This doesn't make them ignore any more actual damage than if they were standing still (client-side damage and all), but it does make them significantly harder to track and actually hit because their movement is unpredictable and subject to latency and other non-game-world factors.

    Again, if the technical limitations weren't a problem, I wouldn't have any issue with strafing as it stands now. That's not the case, though. Instead, we have a subset of players who understand the very thing I'm explaining and exploit it to give them a immense advantage (getting a little tired of repeating this, btw).


    * In the past, if done fast enough, this could make you to appear to fall through the floor on your opponent's screen. May still work now, but I just see ******** flickering between the crouch and stand positions.
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  19. Axehilt


    Do you feel this post made a point of some kind? If so, could you tell me what it is?
  20. cykael


    I'm sorry but CS is way more deep as a shooter than PS2 is. Your comparison is absolutely laughable with the Windows thing I'm just going to assume you've never played the game apart from shooting couple hours in a public deathmatch. The depth in Quake and Tribes also doesn't come out of the weapon mechanics either but everything else which is why a big portion of the older playerbase was angry when the new "casualized" patch hit Quake Live. Both of those games have hitscan weapons as well.

    I don't feel that PS2 should have hitscan weapons though but the AD spam could use some changes.