[Suggestion] Make Phoenix rockets immune to small arms fire.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by CompletelyDeadCoyote, Aug 31, 2014.

  1. Auzor


    Whoah woah woah,
    don't put words in my mouth;
    I posted:
    -> So, I am actually not advocating for an invulnerable phoenix missile. Neither is the OP, he only advocates invulnerability from infantry fire.
    I do agree however, that the dps at range is quite low. On the other hand, a lock-on would need to .. lock-on.
    But I would like to see changes to missiles in general. (posted elsewhere on this forum)

    "fire from complete safety": honestly, firing the phoenix through spawn-shields: it doesn't work for me. I would actually rahter like it to be impossible to fire from a spawnroom with any weapon. Make it impossible for enemies to mine an area say, 10m around the spawn room.
    Other then that, there is no such thing as complete safety: the missile can't corner very well, meaning to fire 'out-of-LoS' you're typically firing at a distance. This means more time standing still. Unlike the AV engineer turret, you actually only see through the missile camera (a good thing IMO); so situational awareness of the missile dudes? Zero, zilch, nada. Pick an infiltrator with a silenced weapon and go have fun.

    As for your
    "That's the NC for you though, Always wanting the best with no trade off what so ever. Just look at your Iwin Shield on your tank. 6 seconds of complete immunity to damage with no drawback at all to using it"
    U-hu.
    Let's check some of that.
    Gauss saw: 200 dmg/bullet. So, 5 bullet chest-kill.
    Against max nanoweave, this becomes 7 chest bullets.@ 500 rpm, 0.84 sec to kill.
    a 143 damage-model LMH with 750 rpm, will need 9 chest bullets to kill vs max nanoweave. Ergo, 0.72 sec to kill.
    (and a 167 dmg, 600 rpm would need 0.8 sec. The rather common 577 rpm GD22S or special Gauss take 0.83+.
    But sir, I am MLG pro, and I burst to the head:
    well, 1000 dmg takes 3 gaus-saw headshots. or 0.36 sec. (against nanoweave, 2 headshots, one body does not suffice)
    With any 750rpm, 143dmg, it takes 4 headshots, for 0.32 sec.
    Feel free to point out if numbers are wrong. Of course, at range it is a different story.
    Now,

    The reaver: slower, less agile, but more armoured and more firepower. except it doesnt have those benefits.
    It in addition has the largest hitbox.
    Supposed compensation: afterburner speed and vertical thruster. Would you say the reaver and it's weaponry have no drawbacks?

    Complete immunity to damage with the shield also is no longer correct.

    The faction specific anti-infantry weapon for vehicles: shotguns, shotguns everywhere.
    Max AI weapons: shotguns. With a very limited magazine.

    As for the vanguard:
    technically speaking, a vanguard AP cannon does less DPS than a lightning's. At max reload reduction they are even.
    Theoretically speaking, a prowlers main cannon does about 40% more dps. (yes, in two shots, with recoil. Then again, that means two shots vs infantry) But, you can slow down an extra 0.5s between shots, and then you only deal 20% more dps. A vanguard does not have 20% more armor than a prowler.
    That is before anchored mode btw.
    Back to vanguard cannon vs lightning: a vanguard 150mm cannon deals no extra splash damage over the 100mm lightning cannon, no extra radius, nada, including HE shell.
    But it does take longer to reload.
    The vanguard shield IS the vanguard. Without it, frankly, the main weapon isn't that good at all, nor is the manoevrability.
    The vanu tank hovers, and gets secondary weapons without bullet drop.
    The vanguard also has, IMO also a rather nice hitbox, compared to say, a magrider.

    Comparatively speaking,
    a prowler can pick anchored mode, for ranged AV artillery (with drawbacks, yes), but you could build a more agressive tank, with the minigun and either smoke or self-repair.
    Similarly for the magrider.
    Vanguard: the shield is a no-brainer; to compensate for everything else.
    I'd say overall tank balance isn't that far off, in part thanks to the admitted added damage reduction the vanguard has, and also due to top weapons: the enforcer, I suspect, helps the vanguard quite a bit in the AV department.
    • Up x 1
  2. Foxirus

    Thats a personal problem. You know what happens every time you have to fire that rocket. If you are firing where infantry can easily find and kill you, thats your own fault. If you don't like the mechanic, Feel free to put away your Phoenix and grab a Decimator. You act as if you have no choice in this. You get to choose where you fire the Phoenix from, Recently I have gotten MY sunderer destroyed plenty of times by phoenix users abusing their ability to fire from the spawn room and be completely safe. So there, If you are smart, NO DRAWBACK.

    You always failed to completely quote what I typed. When I mentioned no drawback I was directing it more so towards your godwin shield. Oddly enough when I point that shield out and how OP it is compared to other faction utilities, You NC get quiet and often times don't even try to quote the post, Sorta like how you left that part out of the quote.



    I have used the phoenix a number of times. If you do not fly a predictable path and keep the rocket moving circular motions, It becomes ridiculously hard to hit with any gun. I have killed plenty of sunderers back when I did tests of NC weapons. If I was an NC player, Yeah I would gladly show you how good you have it. Fortunately for everyone I am a VS player. Sorry you can't see what you have.
  3. Foxirus

    Actually you really can't compare your tank with the magrider. The magrider is worse than the Vanguard in every single way minus our anti infantry options. You really can't compare your tank to a lightening, It doesn't matter what a lightening has firing speed, The Vanguard will win every single time if the Vanguard isn't ignorant.

    "The vanu tank hovers"

    What the hell does that have to do with anything? Hovering is no longer a benefit now that everyone and their grandmother has turret stabilization.

    "Secondary weapons with no bullet drop"

    Oh you mean the Saron? That weapon that becomes complete crap conewise if you fire too quickly at anything outside of 100m?
    You can't use bullet drop against us. The devs nerf it anywhere it becomes useful or add ridiculous cones of fire to anything they don't just blatantly remove it from.


    So to try and argue that your tank needs the shield to be viable, You attempt to compare it with the mags ability to float and that its secondary weapons have no bullet drop? Well if you are that bad, Ill go ahead and say what the hell, Im an MLG to. We are all MLG's. That guy that just C4'd himself trying to kill a single flash? MLG.

    If you are an MLG, I am not impressed.


    "I'd say overall tank balance isn't that far off"

    Put equally skilled pilots in the Vanguard and a mag or even a prowler who is too close to deploy.

    1v1 = Vanguard wins 100%

    2v2= Vanguard wins 100%

    4v4= Vanguards still win.


    Even if you get the drop on a vanguard, They can still pop the shield and win. NO OTHER TANK CAN DO THIS (Provided pilots of both tanks are equal in skill level). How the hell is that "Balanced?"


    Back onto topic, Like the prowler you can "Pick" where you fire your Phoenix from. If you die because you picked a bad spot that has little to no protection from snipers? Tough luck. We all have the same luck with lock ons (TR) and having to charge our ESRL.


    Also, Nice job trying to show that having a slightly larger hitbox counts as a drawback, Because it doesn't in the case of the Vanguard compared to the other tanks sizes. What the hell does you posting random weapon stats killing infantry have anything to do with the Phoenix or your tank being OP? Not a thing. You are pretty much speaking to hear your self speak in this part.
  4. CompletelyDeadCoyote

    I just find it more clear and clean to adress a sertain line of text ruther then copy everything from a couple hundred pixels above. But ok, i'll quote all the text if that's what you desire for coversation. That's hardly a problem.

    If you say there's no drawback only inside spawnroom, and everything else - is a risk i take, i can only reply that you and your sunderer can stay inside any forsfielded tech-plant and going outside from there is a risk you choose to take. And as you say - you act as if you have no choise in that. So if youre smart - NO DRAWBACK.
    Seriously though - spawnphoenixing (if that can be a word) is not a very usefull thing in the game. You can hardly capture a base with that stratagy. Or defent a point. Or simply kill anything further then 300m from spawnpoint, wich is 90% of things. So you do have to go outside and be a sitting duck for snipers with the lowest-dps rocket launcher without an ability to kill infantry in 1 hit. And that is a downside. And if you've lost your sundy to phoenixes it's either no one was repairing the sundy, either there was no one shooting down rockets and repairing the sundy. Either there were very many HA's with Phoenixes that focuse-fired you. That said, i realy wouldn't mind to reduse, say, lifetime of Phoenix rocket if it is fired from spawnroom - may be that'd make those mighty spawnroom-wariors to come out and actualy do something usefull.

    And anwer the main question about all this: whay exactly should infantry have the ability to shoot down Phoenix rockets? Sundies can do that just fine with their weapons. As any other vehicle or aircraft.

    Also shield sucks. I want a flying tank with a turbo-button and aoe-reaper secondary gun.
  5. Foxirus

    If thats the case, Please do come play as a VS for a couple months. You'll see just how spoiled you really are as an NC.
  6. iller

    This, OP is trying to take skill out of the game.

    Skill should be rewarded, including skill for the Phoenix guider as well who currently has VERY LITTLE potential given that the Phoenix missile not only flies slower than a Valkryie, it also turns slower than a Galaxy and does only slightly more damage than a Lancer.

    Atleast one of those nobs needs to be turned back up and then the people who shoot them out of the air can be granted more XP as well. (same they'd get for disarming tank mines & turrets, etc)




    This is not viable and the only people who think it is, never actually tried it or were shotting at a Sunderer that was already out in the open. In order to fire it out the spawn, you have to aim up through the "yellow" shield and then you only have a couple seconds to angle back down before full acceleration kicks in. At most bases, this means you'll have already flown it past where the Sundy was parked by the time you get it angled down far enough. This tactic is basically only effective with some Indar bases where there are magriders up on a hill that you could just as easily aim dumbfires at.

    Shooting out of "Hard" blue shields does not work either. Go to a tower or walk up to a Vehicle shield some time and try standing right inside it with the Phoenix trialed or any rocket launch for that matter. The collision "face" for the outgoing edge of the shield is always offset a foot or two out from the incoming "clipping" plane meaning that you must always stand slightly outside it's protective incoming "face" in order to fire any projectile past it's outgoing blocking "face". So doing so is suicide as you'll get 1-clipped by even the worst players while your character stands there 100% exposed



    I'd also point out that it seems to have 2 different collision hulls when trying to detect collision with geometry versus collisions with players/vehicles. The one for geometry is obviously larger as it will often pass clean through a lot of MAX units but collide with tree limbs that are atleast a foot away.
    • Up x 1
  7. iller

    ^PKB
    This, OP is trying to take skill out of the game.

    Skill should be rewarded, including skill for the Phoenix guider as well who currently has VERY LITTLE potential given that the Phoenix missile not only flies slower than a Valkryie, it also turns slower than a Galaxy and does only slightly more damage than a Lancer. Atleast one of those nobs needs to be turned back up and then the people who shoot them out of the air can be granted more XP as well. (same they'd get for disarming tank mines & turrets, etc)



    The only thing it does "major damage" to is an ESF. Otherwise, this is simply not viable and the only people who think it is, never actually tried it or were shooting at a Sunderer that was already out in the open. In order to fire it out the spawn, you have to aim up through the "yellow" shield and then you only have a couple seconds to angle back down before full acceleration kicks in. At most bases, this means you'll have already flown it past where the Sundy was parked by the time you get it angled down far enough. This tactic is basically only effective with some Indar bases where there are magriders up on a hill that you could just as easily aim dumbfires at.

    Shooting out of "Hard" blue shields does not work either. Go to a tower or walk up to a Vehicle shield some time and try standing right inside it with the Phoenix trialed or any rocket launch for that matter. The collision "face" for the outgoing edge of the shield is always offset a foot or two out from the incoming "clipping" plane meaning that you must always stand slightly outside it's protective incoming "face" in order to fire any projectile past it's outgoing blocking "face". So doing so is suicide as you'll get 1-clipped by even the worst players while your character stands there 100% exposed



    I'd also point out that it seems to have 2 different collision hulls when trying to detect collision with geometry versus collisions with players/vehicles. The one for geometry is obviously larger as it will often pass clean through a lot of MAX units but collide with tree limbs that are atleast a foot away. (or this could simply be an issue of the collision detection being server side instead of client side)
  8. vanu123

    If someone can hit any rocket it should be blown up.
  9. GrandpaFlipfox

    I still want a shoulder fired Raven with only one or two rounds in the mag.
  10. Frosty The Pyro

    thats honestly an over reaction. At launch the rocket was kinda bugged were it was effectively invisable, shooting them down was more luck than anything else. But they consistantly render like they are suposed to these days. I wouldnt mind seeing if the old AI capabilities would be viable now that they can be reliably and easily shot down by anyone paying attention. Doubly so if they finaly included flak detonating near pheonix like they said it would at launch.
  11. TorigomaSET

    Those Numbers are extremely Skewed. Trusting Dasanfall for REAL numbers is a bad idea. They essentially say "IF YOU DON'T PLAY LIKE US! THEN IT DOES NOT COUNT!" Not to say one way or the other when it comes to the Launchers, simply don't trust Dasanfall for those number to begin with.
  12. Thesweet

    It is already op with the ability to hit vehicles behind cover. Go get your I win button else where noob nc.
  13. DevDevBooday

    You are absolutely right, they could be extremely skewed. They might be out by about 20% even

    The phoenix is still LEAGUES ahead of the others, thats the point I was making. You can find stats from multiple sources, all with different numbers but ALL with the Phoenix being number one by a longshot.
    If the launchers efficiency differed by a few percent then it could be argued, but not 50% No one can skew to that extent.

    Us being able to shoot the rockets out of the sky is our ONLY defense against these rockets.
    Flares dont do anything, smoke does nothing, even hiding behind things does nothing. We HAVE to shoot them down.

    They will never remove the ability to shoot the rockets down. That is the last thing NC should beg for. Its just not realistic.
  14. Auzor


    Soo.. we can't compare the vanguard to the magrider, but the vanguard is still better.. you don't see a contradiction there?
    No, I am most certainly not an MLG player. Planetside 2 is the first fps I've played online in years. But I do like to "theory-craft".

    As for the magrider vs vanguard:
    the hovering ability actually adds quite a bit of manoevrability to the vanu tank, particularly going up hill. Likewise, it can simply run over the small bumps that drop the speed of a vanguard as if it was a roadblock.
    There are some other benefits:
    The vanu tank has much better off-road capability. It should be used as an ambusher. It also means it can use lines of retreat impossible for either the prowler or vanguard, not just lines of attack.
    There are some secondary benefits:
    in advance of an enemy tank zerg, people will put mines on the roads or on "traffic" areas.
    The vanu tank can almost completely choose to remain outside such areas. I'd be quite interested in the number of "mine kills" against vanguards/prowlers vs magriders.

    You seem to dismiss any advantage the vanu have, you mention shield and phoenix, yet the rest of the game wouldn't matter?
    The game is asymetrically balanced. Will NC get ninja-camo for their infantry? Will the reaver get scythe mobility?
    Well get this: take away the vanguard shield. Put "equally skilled" pilots in the mbt's. How many engagements does the vanguard win?

    Head on prowler vs vanguard, both AP rounds both frontal armor, no secondary weapons. (lets presume kobalts were picked)
    IF prowler driver needs 1s for the second shot, he is doing equal dps against the vanguard; anything faster and the prowler driver is winning.
    (math: vanguard does 2075*(1-0.68)*(1.15)=763.6 dmg; or 5.238 shots.
    prowler does 1250*(1-0.73)*(1+0.13)=381.375. *2=762.75. 5.244 "firing cycles"
    Now, yes the prowler is putting in twice the amount of shots. But, it can do more dps. Shouldn't it then, be more difficult to use?

    Prowler vs vanguard, side-to-side: (fire teh broadside!) Both players picked extra side armor. (this favors the vanguard over no extra armor btw)
    vanguard does same dps;
    prowler drops slightly. 1250*(1-0.75)*(1+0.13)=353.125. *2=706.25. Prowler needs 5.67 shots.
    Here, prowler loses (because on the 6th shooting cycle, he needs to hit two shots), unless driver shoots faster than 1sec between shots.
    So, the prowler driver "determines" the outcome: do you put two skilled players in the tanks, or two errr.. 'not so skilled'? Can the prowler driver compensate for the recoil, in less than 1 sec?
    In addition, the prowler then has superior mobility. (and better anti-infantry. And better dps vs magrider. )

    And uh, if http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/Vehicle_armor_and_damage_resistance
    is correct, then yes, a vanguard's side with side armor takes less damage than a vanguard front with extra front armor. :confused:
    I'm not sure it is correct, but I used those values. If side is 63% protection instead of 65%, then broadside situation is essentialy equal to frontal.

    Front-front, no front armor:
    vanguard needs 4.53 shots;
    prowler 4.42 "firing cycles".
    In the rare "rear-to-rear" situation:
    vanguard needs 2.39 shots;
    prowler 2.02 firing cycles. But: the fire will finish the vanguard. In this case, shield won't help. Rejoice TR! I recommend rear-rear for honor-duelling the vanguard :p

    Admittedly, I left out secondary weapons, which would do slightly more dmg vs the prowler than the vanguard too. (except rear case)
    But I believe it is vastly wrong to dismiss so easily the advantage of more mobility, and the potential to pump out more dps from the prowlers cannons.

    Put simply, without "shield", in skilled hands prowler > vanguard. In AV dps, in addition to the already advantage in AI, in mobility.
    Anchored prowler will blow vanguard away, unlike the magrider, the vanguard can not go "hillclimbing" to rearshot those prowlers.

    Here's a question for you:
    by what ability, would you propose replacing the shield ability?

    A damage reduction skill? A mobility skill? A dps skill?
    Make the shield immobilise the vanguard? (or slow considerably?)

    I left out vanguard vs magrider: the magrider should outflank & outmanoever the vanguard. Otherwise it is dead, yes. Again, assymetric balance.


  15. Lamat

    And lasers too.
  16. Pikachu

    That defense only became possible long after the infantry damage nerf. For months since release the missile didn't render. People complained too much about getting killed by an invisible projectile. You can see it on all those old videos that enemies don't react when the missile is coming to them. They just keep standing there or running in a straight predictable line. Today that still happens today, but now it's pure stupidity.
  17. axiom537

    With the upcoming changes to the Striker and the current versatility of the Lancer, I think the Phoenix needs more then just having this feature removed, but it should also have a dumbfire mode. Then we might actually see a Phoenix being used in a location other then a spawn room.
    • Up x 1
  18. Frosty The Pyro



    were are you getting 50% from? Vehicle kills (the most relevant stat for the ESLs) 13.9 pheonix, 13.3 lancer, and 11.2 on the striker. And I suspect a large portion of those are from engineer turrets. Pheonix is awesome at clearing engi turrets, but its not quite the same as downing a MBT or ESF.
  19. DevDevBooday

    No its not the most relevant stat, because the Striker can ONLY hit vehicles, you have to take it on the whole, KPU is a much broader viewpoint. It takes into account all kills, from vehicles, turrets, infantry, aircraft.
    If thats how you want to look at it I could just as well try to find stats saying how many infantry kills each launcher has gotten and then say its the only relevant stat. Its bias.
  20. Frosty The Pyro


    they are AV weapons which are ALL very bad at killing infantry, so yes vehicle kills IS the most relevant stat. more over KPU is a HORRID stat, its non standardized. A KPU of 200 could be over 2 hours, or over 2000 hours. Standardizing over a time unit is the better way to judge things. Still yet better would be if you could weight your value based on the type of vehicles killed (a flash kill is worth less than a MBT kill for example), but thats not available at all.
    • Up x 1