Redeploy is killing any idea of attacking

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ThePyroRussian, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. NC_agent00kevin


    Yeah, you're right. Those 60 guys that can miraculously save a base must not be organized enough to do a Gal drop directly onto the point, which is far more effective than spawning from a room you allegedly have locked down.

    I like how people always want to nerf things that make them lose :D
  2. starlinvf


    Its far more fundamental, and has to do with the size of bases, and the speed at which things happen. The problem is the way attackers or defenders gain and lose momentum. The only thing that ever hinders this is a choke point that causes both sides to come to a dead stop, but they are rare and always located in illogical places in terms of game flow. Thats why caps points in towers are now outside, why generators in bases are on the outskirts, and why the Bio lab remains is such a grind fest (being largely unchanged).

    PS1 bases were very compartmentalized, giving the attackers and defenders a hard time moving in either direction as TTKs weren't sub second, and overall mobility wasn't as high. The caps were longer, allowing the defenders the ability to mount a counter offensive either inside, or from the next base over..... but the process itself was slow, which gave everything a sense of flow.

    Right now any single action can wildly swing the entire battle in one direction or another. and thats what causing such a huge upset in what little meta game we have. 1 unnoticed MBT can decimate 4-5 vehicles from behind, completely removing spawn points and their protection in barely 30 seconds. Liberators in their heyday could wipe open areas completely clean before most could get a lock on in retaliation.


    TL;DR Spawning isn't the actual problem, it comes down to the compact maps design, empire momentum, and general ease of adding and removing spawn points at a base. Defenders move around too quickly, attackers are often forced to disperse (and when they don't, the inverted offense takes shape..... see any base with a single cap point), the space between bases are far too small, and bases themselves need to be larger and compartmentalized so fights move between room to room (with a lot more of them) while still offering multiple paths around the base.

    I would also argue more emphasis needs to be put ON THE MAP during death to get people thinking about strategy and path selection, giving significant value back toward the planning side of the game, and away from the lemming "spawn and die as fast as you can" mentality players have. This massive focus on Weapons directives also damaged incentives for players to remain adaptive to the battle conditions, essentially forcing them to focus on sub-optimal loadouts in order to gain points. This would had been a non-issue if the Directives were primarily class based, the weapon rewards placed there, and the action counts significantly higher in lieu of specific weapon medals.
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  3. MrJengles

    Right now the 50/50 limit is practically useless because squads can simply bypass it with squad spawn and beacons. The logical fix is for players outside a reinforcements needed territory to be considered as using that feature whatever the spawn choice inside the territory.

    And it should go up to 55% because that allows more people to access what is usually considered a pretty even fight, which can be hard to find at times.

    So what do you think of systems that still allow solo players to redeploy but limit squads and platoons? I.E. a redeploy queue for reinforcements needed; the more people spawning, the longer it would take.
  4. NC_agent00kevin



    I agree with this 100%. It seems like hardly anyone except the top tier Outfits spend time evaluating the map, which is a critical tool. Even as a Lone Wolf, I spend lots of time evaluating the map. I not only look at where fights are, but where they are likely to go next and where that 48+ opposition is going to redeploy to when that base flips in 46 seconds.
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  5. NC_agent00kevin


    Thats not fair to those playing in Platoons as it caters to Lone Wolfs. I dont want the game to cater to my play style, but I dont want it to actively hinder it either.

    Ive seen ideas of timers for how far the base is from your current location, and thats about as good as it gets without getting crazy with it. I typically fight in the same areas anyway; but occasionally I will redeploy from Rashnu to Indar Excavation.

    Perhaps players should be able to redeploy to any base at any time, just have to wait a timer out based on distance from their current location. We wouldnt have a green blob on every base to click on; you'd simply click on the territory you want and the green dot would show up along with a timer showing you how long it takes to go there.
  6. Covah

    Redeploy is one of the tools that allow a zerged base to counter attack from the spawns.

    It should stay as it is, tactical redeploy from outfits/players is part of the game.
  7. MrJengles

    Yeah, I've no idea what SOE were smoking with the new quick spawn :( It just encourages mindless zerging.

    Right now the game IS catering to the solo player at the expense of better battle flow.

    The way I see it the gameplay suffers drastically from this redeployside meta. To force everyone to use transports would be unfair because squads have an easier time maintaining transports and protecting them. Thus, solo players (and newbies) need an easy way to get around but it can't be something that breaks the need for logistics when scaled up.
  8. NC_agent00kevin



    I completely disagree that the game is catering to solo players. It is incredibly hard to accomplish anything as a solo player. Groups of solo layers get stomped by organized players. I almost always get squad invites at most bases I go to as a Lone Wolf that has other players present.

    I may be missing something as a Lone Wolf though; not seeing things from a team perspective. What exactly caters to solo players and hinders team players at the same time?
  9. SacredRay


    Oh? So why is that whenever my evening ISK squad do ops at a base, iNi magically show up everytime? ^^
  10. SharkliteTR

    Ah r4zor, we meet again comrade. Wherever is Kosh at thesedays? I need some Vanu Corp MAX's to train a locked-down Pounder at :)

    I've not been back under SOE's domain long, but (annoyingly, for old time's sake) I entirely agree. This game sorely needs a significant amount of what they gutted out of the PS1 model crowbar'd back into it. Whoever this Higby muppet is needs a right slap, I've basically been playing battlefield 3 without the loading screens for the past two weeks.
    • Up x 1
  11. MrJengles

    I'm strictly talking about the redeploy system.

    As you said, solo players gain a lot from redeploy because it's an easy way to get around, while team focused players are the usual advocates of more logistics. The choices are therefore:

    -Focus on solo and newer players only, keep the current redeploy system and sacrifice the logistics and battle flow.
    -Focus on organized squads/platoons/outfits only, move to a very heavily logistics oriented game.
    -Work out a middle-ground which allows solo players to move around the map more easily, given it's more difficult for them to maintain transports, but also prevents mass redeploying.

    Since there's benefits to both directions a lot of the proposed solutions go for that middle-ground. To ignore the calls for more logistics is to make PS2 only cater to a section of its playerbase.
  12. NC_agent00kevin



    Well, strictly redeploy-speaking, I would say it actually benefits organized players more. They can easily come in and crush loosely organized players or a random group of pubs easily. I used to roll with EXPO as a non-member (of the Outfit) on Waterson and thats how they did things. Mass redeploy all over the map during alerts, but also used Gals and Sunderers/Tank Columns. It was a good mixture of ways to move around. The current system works both for and against solo and new players.

    I dont think transports are all about logistics either - its more about tactics. When you mass redeploy to a base, you have a single point from which to launch your counterattack. Thats not always optimal. Gals and Sunderers give a much needed way to approach the battle in a tactical way. I just dont think much can be done to both stop mass redeploys yet still allow new/solo players to get around. Even distance based timers would not stop it.
  13. SharkliteTR

    We had this thing see, called a HART? It let you drop anywhere you wanted outside of a base SOI every 7 then 3:30min.

    Of course, that would require a recall button & some kind of Sanctuary - Shuttle (art resources / coding / effort) so :rolleyes:
    • Up x 2
  14. NC_agent00kevin


    Please elaborate on how this was balanced for solo as well as team players. I never played PS1; never even heard of it until PS2 came out.
  15. Demigan

    How about this:

    There are communication towers scattered all over every continent. Some are right on top of the point, others are outside of the base.
    Make these a key element in spawning. Control of the tower allows for the current spawning methods. Should an enemy hack the communications tower, spawning is much more restricted to players who are nearby rather than 'reinforcement deploys' etc. This would give a great logistics and combat option: get in, hack the tower to prevent easy reinforcements and take the point.

    Possibly it could give more advantages/disadvantages. Such as shortening the timers of squadbeacons when captured, allowing the players to aim their droppod in the mapscreen (with a large COF that is).
    Disadvantages could include: when the tower is not in your hands, the range of a Q-spot is reduced (so people farther away aren't alterted) and the lenght of time you are Q-spotted is reduced. When not in your hands it is easier to hack your turrets. When an area isn't linked to an enemy lattice the enemy cannot hack a turret/terminal unless he hacks the tower.
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  16. MasterCheef

    maybe if [PSA] wasn't abbreviated, it wouldnt be so hard to comprehend.
  17. FateJH

    Wouldn't even need the Sanctuary concept, in theory; you'd just need to expand the capabilities of the Warp Gate, and there's more than enough room and vacant buildings.
    The art resources / coding / effort---yeah, that's the real stickler.
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  18. Inex

    Which is pretty much exactly why the Sundy is now 200. The only remaining problems is that A) redeploying after a fight is even easier than pulling a Sundy, and B) knowing that you've got a good chance of getting capture denied by a full platoon 30 seconds from taking the next base.
  19. MrJengles

    Yes, organized squads become more effective, but in a way that negatively impacts the game.

    For solo and new players the use is to get into a fight quickly when they have few good options and the game can be difficult to learn. If we didn't have redeploy at all then we might suffer a loss in players.

    For organized squads/platoons/outfits, despite being perfectly capable of pulling Galaxies, the use is to jump between bases, quickly overwhelm the attackers for an unfun fight on both sides, then redeploy to next base before it has finished capping. Effectively, being in 2 places at once because there is virtually no travel time.

    There is no risk to redeploying, unlike Galaxies which can be shot down. There is no cost, although people have suggested it should cost nanites depending on the distance.

    As for time, my suggestion was to create a player queue so it takes longer the more players try to spawn using reinforcements needed. Once you reach the size of a squad, it would be a lot faster to simply grab a Galaxy from the Warpgate which means squads wouldn't enter the queue, so the timers would remain short for solo players.


    When people traverse the map they become vulnerable. We see more fights over terrain, more vehicle use (rather than the "everyone hit redeploy" call where people drop their armor, or arrive late to the fight) and vehicle escort gameplay. Just as SOE want players to escort friendly resources or intercept enemy resources once we get ANT modules, so we should have the same for troop carriers.

    This gives us alternative objectives and means to alter the course of a battle - the much needed meta. It also spreads forces out rather than cramming them all into tiny bases leading to grindfests over 1 to 3 capture points.
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  20. LtSqueak

    Just a quick thought that I mentioned a few weeks ago and didn't get much feedback on, but the people who did respond liked it.

    1) Remove re-spawning anywhere besides the warpgate and any hex directly connected to the hex you are in (disregarding lattice lines). I've seen big battles a couple of hexes and it's nice being able to get to both edges of the fight fairly easily. But no more across-the-map spawning to save a base.
    This would also include squad owned vehicles. No more having a gal prepped across the map for the last minute save by an outfit.
    2) Add a new terminal to the warpgate to allow spawning at any base (and possibly deployed sundy?) on the map. This would have to be limited in some fashion. Maybe have re-deploys go in groups of 12 every 30s or something. So to move an entire platoon would take roughly 2 minutes once everyone got back to the warpgate.
    3) Allow spawning ANYWHERE (base or sundy) on the map when you first log-in. I run in an outfit and this is still a huge pain for me. I can only imagine the frustration the lone wolves have that just want to find a fight but have to re-deploy a couple of times. Just fix this already.

    My hope would be that this would add more logistics into the game and give structured platoons more that they have to think about in order to save bases, while also giving the lone wolves a fairly painless way to get anywhere on the map that they wanted in order to find a fight.
    But I could also see this back-firing and everyone just saying "it takes too much effort to go save that base. let them have it." leading to two zergs that never see each other.

    Thoughts?
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