RPM is not perfectly balanced by damage. There's actually gun over 750 that only drops to 125 (the Terminus), and even the ones that drop to 112 have the same minimum damage range (it's always 10 meters, or 15 with soft point). In the MSW-R vs. TRV comparison you're actually wrong. The TRV is always faster, but the time is almost identical once you get to 60 meters. The 13% advantage to the TRV decays linearly from 15 to 60. If you drop soft point and go CARV over MSW-R the TRV advantage is even higher. Second, talking about TTK in terms of blinking eyes is really missing the point. The most important factor with TTK is how many more bullets your target gets to shoot before they die. In most situations there's movement, explosions, flinch, recoil, etc. so it's going to take you more than 7 bullets to drop a target, so there are all sorts of permutations and combinations to look at. The short of it is that running high RPM gives your target less of a chance to shoot back, leaving you with more health after a win and a better chance of turning a loss in to a victory or narrow trade. Finally recoil patterns can be learned, but not mastered. Random elements, particularly when combined with first shot recoil multipliers, make recoil stats an important part about judging a weapon. For instance, it is outright impossible to reliably land first and second headshots with many weapons at ranges past ~5 meters. If you have a weapon that can do this you're going to enjoy a lower TTK when you line up your aim.
Do you realize that you comparing LMGs stat for HA vs HA.. When you start shooting other classes they trying to hide, run into cover, while HA pop ups his shield, turns around and sprays full mag into your face. And i think, the problem is not only within HA shield, the problem is TTK for other infantry - its really quick, while with HA shield you both can shoot each other for good few seconds, and you have time to react, to adjust your fire - so better shooter may win.
There's a lot to be said here. RPM and damage loss is not a perfect balance, but in general, higher RPM guns are not as accurate and do not deal as much damage at range. The faster you fire, the more your bloom increases as well, and the less time you have between shots for it to decrease. ARs also suffer horizontal recoil, while LMGs do not. Furthermore, if you set up two people shooting each other with 100% accuracy, they will both kill each other if they are 33m away or farther due to travel time differences between the two bullets. Here's an example of the CARV's full auto accuracy with no attempt to correct, and when I tried to maintain body shots. Out of 35 rounds, I missed all of 1 shot when trying to correct for the recoil. As opposed to the TRV: (I aimed for the head because I wasn't thinking for full auto-no compensation) Even when trying to compensate for the extra recoil on the AR, I still wound up missing a significantly more than I did on the CARV simply because the CARV has no horizontal recoil. So in short, LMGs are certainly not worse than ARs except if you're at 30m or less range, are using the highest DPS AR in the game, and have absolutely perfect accuracy with all the recoil. And of course all of this is bunk anyway because a medic will be dead before they can get 125 points of healing from their nano field or shields, and the HA will not have taken a single point of health damage if they had a full overshield. Their argument was other weapons are better for all around usage. It's pretty clear LMGs are perfectly fine in just about every situation except for ranges less than 10 meters, where they are at a TTK disadvantage of 6 hundredths of a second from the highest DPS AR in the game. Any other AR will have much less of a difference, and both of them would lose to shotguns at that range.
And here you are assuming that the average HA has laserlike aim while the medic shoots all over the place. In the synthetic test you did the first 6-7 shots are what matter, not the byproduct of holding the lmb down for 2 hours. A 15m fight, the medic is by a crate and the heavy is "strafing" with his shield flared in ADS, who wins? There are variables, and using anecdotal evidence i have been killed plenty by TR and vanu medics headon, all you need to do is use your faster ads speed and adad while i am stuck with a shield on to give myself a miniscule advantage that can be taken out in a few more rapid hits.
Of course there are variables. But you can't account for them all, and the person who can get most of them to their advantage will usually win. But very often that's the HA because their arsenal and utility choices are so vast. Rocket launchers? Shotguns? SMGs? C4? Medkits? Conc grenades? AV Grenades? HAs get it all. Toss on an extra 700 shields that can be added at the flick of a switch and it's no wonder so many people play them. Even with their nano-regen field, medics can get a max of 500 and it takes significantly longer to regenerate. Unless you just really love playing support, it's a no brainer. HAs can fight everything and come out on top. And they could do it even without the shield, because they have the most versatile arsenal. And by the way, that's not "laserlike aim" vs "shooting all over the place". ARs have horizontal recoil, LMGs do not. It's harder to keep an AR right on target than it is an LMG.
Rocket launchers? All of my infantry kills with them are accidental or if i get several shots on a guy i'll fire my rocket to fish him out or finish him. Even that wont work since most players with red health keep running and dont stay in the tiny splash damage radius. The HA does have it all, but the main "problem" according to forumside is the shield so lets stick with weapons that synergize best with it. Shotguns - If another class gets the drop on me and fires a shot i am toast. My shield needs to be activated, and when i activate it my health is red assuming i am not dead. This is assuming he has a PA by the way, a semi or full auto will have me on the deathscreen. Lets say i am red and he cant finish me off, my shield is purely switched on due to instinct (even though its useless since its resist. A bad habit) and if im lucky and using my jackhammer i will maybe get the kill. I would also get the kill if i was a non heavy shotty user (maybe theres a little less of a chance) and this is assuming he doesnt bumrush and knife me. If i have my SAW or anchor i am done for. SMGs- we are blessed with the cyclone, which i find a lot more effective on an infiltrator. The best thing about a smg is rhe hipfire accuracy even without a laser. If i use my shield that hipfire strafe speed is cut down and i am now a hipfiring dump truck. That strafe which i use to kill guys who are a bit further away with my infy is negated, and they can take cover or adad strafe back. Lets say there are two dudes, with 5 metres between em. If im an inf i kill the first guy, cloak and run away while his buddy panics. If im a heavy and i shield i kill the first guy and his buddy reacts, i probably die if hes an average thinker or at best its a draw with both of us hiding to heal. C4, its a bit more useful than with a medic as we get the rocket launcher, but LAs still do it best (most tankers dont look UP). Conc grenades? Dont personally use em but if a buddy throws one during a bio lab grind ill use my mauler or the Hammer, no shield required since i want to maximize my speed while theirs is minimized, the MAX is the most lethal thing when you are conc'd though. If we lost our shield then we would lose some (being conservative here) of our effectiveness as shock infantry. Coming in through the doorway behind a max with his shield up or his scats blasting would be a lot less effective, in situations like that every bit of health counts. When RS and flak stacked, heavies would be so much bolder taking on tanks, now its seriously a game of cats and mice (the way it should be).
Let's reverse situations a bit. Let's say you get the jump on an enemy. What happens? They have no "oh s***" shield. There's nothing to save them. They die. There is literally zero chance unless you're a bad shot, because by the time latency comes into play at close range they're going to be dead before they can react. So why should the HA have a chance to survive? For some of those classes, their entire purpose is to flank enemies. LA and infiltrators are there for surprise attacks, and both lose things to get those advantages. So again, the HA has more options, has firepower that's every bit as good as anyone else, is the only class that can take out vehicles at range without being a massive target - why do you also need a shield? And note, I'm not really against the HA having a shield. I think we need a resource-free breaching class. But I don't think it should be instant-activate and I think it should cap out at 500. But I also think TTKs are far too low given how poorly their servers perform.
The Heavy should be having the biggest technical advantage when getting backstabbed due to how the shield works. And lets face it, unless youre playing really conservatively or just came from spawn your AS/nmg (rs is useless in these situations) is probably depleted to some level. Even if it isnt, 500 hp isnt much when the guy backstabbing you probably has a 750rpm+ weapon or a shotgun. Good of you to acknowledge the inf/LAs purpose, they should be the ones doing the flanking and stalking. If they get outflanked, its due to their own error or its a luckier/smarter hunter. If a heavy outflanks the inf or LA its on the smaller class, especially on the flier. When is a hunting bird most vulnerable? When its on the ground(or surface of water) where a larger rand or sea predator can kill it .the HA actually moves slower when he's being backstabbed assuming he uses his shield, which gives the attacker (who should be strafing now) another advantage. Not to mention the fact that the two flankers have the luxury of choosing their fight. The shield gives the benefit in breaching, in pushes, in clearing rooms. That is the shield's purpose (bar the jackhammer/shotgun plus concs, but no one really coordinates those, usually its one guy throwing it, running in and getting his 6 seconds of glory before being killed amd having his victims revived). Rocket launchers only take out healthy vehicles in volume and with assistance by av turrets, friendly vehicles and air support. Then again that is a matter of the OPness of teamwork. One man ambushing a squad will take out 3 or 4 before dying, in most cases. 3 or 4 men in coordination ambushing that same squad could clean house. Same goes with RLs and most vehicles.
Just so you know, you are very wrong. 12 HAs would get absolutley SMASHED by a good balanced squad and this happens allllllll the time every day in PS2. Nabs go "oh heavy OP i play heavy" and then wonder why they get their ***** handed to them base after base. And no, you dont only take Infil for darts. The infiltrator is the single best flanking unit in the game, you get your infils in a good spot and they will be taking out more of the bad guys than your heavys.
Agreed, an infiltrator with a SMG is extremely lethal, with the killing power of a jackhammer heavy but with the added benefit of going invisible. In large firefights the cloaking sound is negligible too.
Again its funny how people honestly believe that giving a class more life, AV weapon, and access to 400 round weapons is not OP when other classes get nothing else... Truth of the matter is this... The average player in PS2 simply cannot appreciate the advantage of a heavy because they lack the skill to fully utilize there abilities. But put the heavy in the hands of a skilled player, and you have literally the best class in the game. It is the ONLY class that can handle every situation with extreme versatility. Counter arguments like.. you need engies and medics etc etc are equally as stupid. The game was designed from the ground up that engies/medics are support classes.. so yes EVERY CLASS NEEDS SUPPORT DUH!!! The argument here is that the heavy is OP because it puts the LA or other "combat" specced classes to shame. If you look at my damn profile, you'll see that I know what im talking about. But hey, Im just trying to help out the average players in PS2... I really could care less if they dont nerf the heavy.... I can just further continue my 5-8 KDRs
No infiltrators to hack terminals? No infiltrators to take out engineers with AV turrets with one headshot? No infiltrators to cause constant disruption amongst a clusterfvck of enemies, using his SMG to tear down a few and then go hiding somewhere to find another opening? No light assaults to jetpack around on rooftops and leap down below, like a leopard. Of course the HA puts the LA to shame in an open battle (not the inf for obvious reasons), for a push into a base the Heavy will be the backbone of the fight. The LA's job is to quickly overload gens and be a harassing class, which the HA isn't as good for. My jackhammer heavy assault, no matter how lethal, can't jetpack or cloak to choose his fights. He can use a shield which assists him in 1v1s and large scaled battles. The LA/Inf also have tools to help them in 1v1s and large scaled battles, the ability to choose their fights. You are a very exceptional player, which is why the HA is so lethal (you addressed that point). Then again, an exceptional player is lethal with any class that he/she specializes in, just moreso in the case of the heavy. Another extremely lethal when mastered class is the infiltrator with bolt actions. Honestly, a very good LA or Infiltrator is much more annoying to me when I'm playing heavy or when i'm playing a non-heavy. Being outplayed by an enemy that you can't see and can get the drop on you anytime they wish?
That's great and all, but I could use any gun in the game and get them all in the chest. Your own failure to handle the TRV doesn't make it a bad gun. The TRV is, in fact, harder to handle than the CARV, but that doesn't mean much. When you learn both guns and apply them in 0-25 meter fights you kill things faster with the TRV. Above that, the stock cycler has identical damage to the CARV with much better hipfire and recoil. Whether you want higher CQC damage or light recoil there's always a way to upgrade an LMG in the form of an AR, you just have to give up the overshield. At this point you've almost completely lost track of any sort of relevant argument. ARs are better than LMGs. LMGs are only relevant to the gun game because they come with the HA shield. This is completely inaccurate. Both weapon classes include guns with both recoil types. Many guns with the horizontal recoil profile can be extremely accurate when bursted because it takes them longer to get off-target. The best VS LMG and AR both have horizontal recoil, for instance. Also just for completeness, COF bloom is not recovered between shots in full auto. Total additional bloom after say, 10 shots, is the same on every single rapid fire weapon with a given base damage.
I think everyone can agree that the light assault is pretty much garbage when you consider what you get vs what you lose. The entire LA class needs something because it flat out does not have a tool or tool replacement he is missing an essential piece of gear that every other class has and gain nothing for it. Light assault only has its mobility going for it, and as such will be always be a inefficient kill class simply because it has nothing to differentiate it and turn it into a solid contender to the HA in terms of firepower. But light assaults needing something here is not the issue, we are talking about class balance and there are a couple of thing here which have to be considered if you are going to come up with accurate representation of power. (Don't even try to bring up infiltrator as another example of a 'combat specced' class, they function in completely different roles and should not even be considered here and should not be compared) First lets ask ourselves, what does the heavy assault bring to the battlefield that makes them different? The obvious first answer is of course their ability to kill vehicles, alright fair enough right? Needing a class for that makes sense. The next thing they bring to the battlefield if of course being more tanky using their shield, this ability is the cause of major controversy because people who find themselves in a 1v1 with one will be at a disadvantage. But what is the real power of this ability outside of that? Virtually nothing, this ability provides absolutely no support to their allies and does nothing to benefit the team, in any large battle a heavies shield provides almost no actual survivability simply because of, as discussed previously, how quickly ttk times are. While on paper a heavy might seem stacked in comparison to a single other class that is because he is and his role as a shock trooper is to be efficient at killing simply because he has no other role or support he can provide to his team. His main draw is his ability to kill enemy vehicles, and outside of that taking a few extra hits is no replacement for being able to hack, repair, heal or revive in terms of how useful he is to his team.
