As a full time Liberator Pilot

This is called a False Dilemma. It's a logical fallacy. http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/fd.htm

You should read more and comment less.

You should re-read your own posts.

What you're saying here is that air should be what is a flat out superior part of the game.

Single Lib.
Force running AA -AND- call for ESF support.


That's air being made too important and strong.
Like it or not, the strength of AA has to scale with the strength of air. The stronger air is, the stronger AA has to be.

That is, if what you want is a balanced -combined arms- game.
And in such a game, one branch, be it air, infantry or ground armour should not be a downright upgrade to everything else, which air in PS2 would be if AA wasn't scaled to match Air.

i do so hate this mentaility. i really do. you see it in fighting games, shooters, basically any genre. imagine if everyone thought like this guy. no game would be any fun. you don't bring a gun to a fencing match just because you "want to win". you learn more from fair fights and respectful encounters than cornering people and making sure they can't fight back. its why PREY straight up bans people for using A2A missiles. i've stopped playing to win a long time ago. i good fight is more valuable to me than million certs.

I'm sorry, What? Your reason is people are stupid, so nerf Vehicles good players can use effectively?

While we're at it, I suck at tracking in infantry, I would prefer if the spotting system was removed, and the enemy was always marked. After all I'm not smart enough to look at my target and press Q.

Its not the problem of the people flying if the guys in the AA are idiots, its the guys on the ground problem. 3 People CAN Destroy a liberator, using under 500 certs each.

In my outfit we have coordination, last time a lib tried farming us, we let him stop and hover, and he took 2 decimators and a lock-on, and instantaneously died.

Mind you, you can not facetank a liberator. You will lose, I don't care what your in. However, 2 MBTs? Yes they can kill a lib. To effectively kill an MBT Quickly, you need to tankbust, Easy counter, Drive toward the lib, not away. Get UNDER The arc.

But the libs hovering up daltoning, Guess what, he's now Dumbfire bait, I've seen idiots land Dumbfires on Non-moving libs.

2 Skyguards, the key here is wait. Engage have ONE engage the lib further out while he's prepping a tankbust, Then, when he's begun, Own him, 2 Skyguards at point blank is Very unlikely for a lib to escape from, Especially if your in an open field.

An AA Tower can kill a lib too, Most libs will TB an AA Tower to kill it. Use an AA Tower as a heavy with a Dumb. Use the AA Tower as long as possible, preferably to Black Smoke, then jump out, and Rocket, you have a dead lib.

Or how about this novel idea, Learn to fly an ESF. They counter libs quite well. Get above the lib, and you win.

There are SO many hardcounters to a lib. Stupidity is not an excuse to nerf something. If it was, this would be COD. Only 12 people are allowed in a zone at a time. Else the matches become unbalanced, and stupid people don't coordinate a Push. Or no more silencers because they make people harder to track.

Read my comments before you interpret them and reply. Lots of Strawmen, False Dilemmas, and Ad Hominem... but yet to hear a single reasoned argument from you.

Perhaps you are missing something... could it be? Take a chance Flag and read my posts.

This is a technicality, but those are counters.
If it was a HARD counter, it would mean a Lib auto-dies when one of those is present.


Hard counters such. The game doesn't really have any, and let's hope it never will.

Oh I have. I just don't agree with your line of reasoning.

Nice 3000 Kills in a magrider, Unfortunitly, MBTs are overpowered, I cant facetank and kill them using my heavy with rockets. I mean those damn Tank rounds hurt. They hurt too much, it should take ATLEAST 2 direct hits from AP TO kill my heavy, 3 with the Overshield. Oh, its also too accurate, It should cone 1 degrees, like the Dalton, so it doesn't work at greater than 30 meters from infantry.

Also your Groundpounding Scythe is annoying, I cant kill it using my infantry, its too damn fast, My missles should instantly travel and hit your Scythe so I can win a 1v1 with you, How else am I supposued to win a 1v1 against the vehicles you like?

what is C4.

i've C4'd hundreds of tanks. how many libs do you think i've C4'd?

I'd be down with them nerfing libs even more if possible

Says you. The developers have never said that. It's not called a bomber, it's called a Gunship.

You are the one that have fabricated out of thin air what you believe the Liberator should and should not be able to do. You're entitled to your opinion, that's ok, but that's not the opinion shared by the Dev Team. The Developers have never said the Liberator was meant for A2G only, and if they had, it would go against the design and weapons available to the Liberator. If it was meant for A2G only, the Shredder and Walker wouldn't exist. It is a multi-role aircraft, and some of us use it better against air than others.

You sir are the one missing the point. You want the game to work one way, the developers want it to work another.

I'm sorry we disagree on this.

Funny, I fly with the PREY guys on my NC, they don't seem to have a problem with me.

You hate my mentality because I'm good at what I do. That makes no sense. Putting myself in a position to win is called tactics and situational awareness. I'm in a Liberator, I'm not running Coyotes or Lock-On Missiles. I'm in a flying Dump Truck that's slower than a Cessna 172 with a gun that has an effective range of FIFTY meters and 44 rounds costing 2441 certs...

I've won encounters where I got the jump, where we saw each other at the same time, and where I got jumped and returned fire.

I don't play to lose. So that makes my mentality hated by people like you? You really need to find something else to worry yourself about.

A good fight to me is being the underdog and coming out ahead. I hate overpop or even fights, they aren't fun for me.

He means that if everyone played to win, everybody would be in an ESF of Liberator.

I assume you meant 'or Liberator'.

Well, just more people for me to kill, they'd run out of resources, and be back on the ground again. Flying isn't easy, and it's not hard to kill those that don't know what they are doing.

Being in an aircraft doesn't automatically mean you're going to win anything.

Nor should it.
But I believe you're already on board with that idea (unlike some others around these parts ... ).

i wil continue learning how to fly my libs and better myself as an esf pilot. I know im not great on foot and have always prided myself in learning how to pilot/drive vehicles in games.

in the short time I have played this game i dont have enough experience to determine if the lib is underpowered or overpowered but i dont recall this much whining about any vehicle back in PS1. well.. maybe back then the magrider and BFR's were complained about.. and the NC max with their bubble shields.. and the VS AA max... wait a second ... ANYWAYS

to those arguing about skygods and whatnot, there are always going to be aces and organized players who will dominate certain aspects of the game. just because they use certain vehicles does not mean we should condemn the vehicles themselves. both sides of the coin are correct in their own right, we want fair fights yes, but always i want to win. If i have to slap on some A2A rocket dealies on my scythe then so be it. my choice to do so. If i wanna jump in a max suit on the ground. i will do it.

TL;DR play the game, dont worry about how others are playing it. good pilots keep me on my toes when i fly and in turn make me a better pilot.

bring back PS1 style liberators...with BOMBS

i have a couple times while they were on the ground repairing, because i was already behind enemy lines tank hunting and i just couldn't resist.

i would pop my skyguard and commence the feast. there are specific imbalances in the air game that i would like to see dealt with, BUT just planting yourself in an aircraft does not guarantee a win (if that were true then the majority of players would already be doing it). it takes my skyguard roughly 4 seconds to kill an ESF if i can land most of my shots.

the changes to make liberators softer against AT weapons have gone a long way towards fixing the problems i had with it. i would still like to see the tankbuster get a good hard nerf in the pants, BUT i would also like to see the other two noseguns get some pretty serious buffs (to make them something beyond entirely useless) and the dalton should probably have it's COF reduced severely if not removed, and if that makes it too easy to hit ESF again then we can reduce shot velocity more (remove the luck factor and directly reward skill, the current 250m/s is still pretty fast [Python AP = 225m/s and that is the fastest cannon round the lightning has, prowler AP has the highest shot velocity at 250m/s, vanguard AP is the highest with 275m/s, and the magrider's pumpkin launcher tops out at 225m/s according to the wiki, so the dalton has a shot velocity that is in the upper end of tank cannons, we can probably safely lower the shot velocity on it more] ). and somebody please fix the poor duster.

So, in your infinite wisdom and awareness including your deep understanding of the Dev Team's thinking, was the Dalton designed for A2A or A2G engagements?

Reading 1/4 of what I write and re-interpreting it doesn't count as not agreeing it counts as being dishonest.

The Liberator isn't the only air unit, and it shouldn't operate in a vacuum. Perhaps if you read the rest of what I wrote instead of just the bits you can highlight and interpret for the world you would know that I proposed a whole solution to the current complaints about libs from both pilots and ground. But you'd rather just argue.

MattiAce is one of the better pilots in PS2, he can stand his own against the likes of rguitar so if you want to say he sucks then you'll have expect me to laugh.

What does he say about using an ESF to engage libs with a dalton shooting at you? "You have to expect to loose." To be fair he was talking about if you fly the way he was there. However, he shows the next fight where he fights at a distance and he is destroyed.

[media]

Those poor libs don't seem all that defenceless against a high end pilot to me. You will also note how the Libs equipped with Daltons were spamming them at Matti - exactly the way I have stated they do and several people have said that doesn't happen....


Now this second video is of WyCliffSlim who can be a real bastage in his Liberator, *smile* he has dalton'd me a few times in the past. I don't know if I have ever tangled with him ESF vs ESF or not though. I fly mostly CAS and only dogfight with ESFs when I have to. Part of CAS is to keep Libs away though.

[media]

One will notice, if they are willing to do so, how the Lib spams the Dalton at him from the very start. Any one of those shots could have been a lucky kill... his first fight is brilliant. He is a highly skilled ESF pilot. Not just competent, highly skilled. At least in this video he executes what I try to do much better than I normally do - I have my moments but these first two clean fights are not my norm. My fights normally look more like fight #3 where he ends up at below half health.

Here we find two excellent ESF pilots and they don't describe fighting Libs at all the way those in this thread who claim to be speaking the views of all competent pilots say it goes down.

Especially now with the tail gun being able to point almost any direction there is no excuse for a one lucky shot kill weapon on the Liberator.

Give ESFs 40 chances at a one shot kill on Liberators and see how long it takes for the 3 guys in this thread to change their tune.

Well to start Ratzo these videos were before the ammo reduction which used to allow lib gunners to spam continuously for some time, not the case anymore. The old ammo pool nerf was also agreed across the board as an appropriate and needed change yet SOE went to far in the actual needed amount. Also note he was speaking about aggressive and skilled A2A libs not libs as a whole as the vast majority are free kills. That is the whole thing that is so exciting about fighting the few good lib crews that play, you flirt with death when you opt to engage them solo. ESF still have the advantage and Libs still lose to competent pilots more times then not, but its that actual threat of a insta pop that gets me excited when I fight these. Why are you so threatened by a challenge in the air Ratzo, even if they nerfed your dreaded Dalton they would simply use Shredders and really ruin your day. Good crews are a challenge, but they are just that, not some unstoppable force that spams daltons all day with impunity. No metrics support your claims of Dalton being OP against ESF, until there are more then a few gunners per server who can reliably kill ESF with a dalton I feel you are just floundering on the idea of an inappropriate nerf.