Need more limitations on deployment

Ps1 had a great system for redeployment. You just had to redeploy back at the warpgate and then take one of those nice HART shuttles that left every 5 minutes to wherever you wanted to go. Or better yet squad up with some guys and drive or fly there as a group.

Gotta burst your bubble here, you're the one that is delusional.

The reasoning is simple, they have been making the game such that gamers wait less, yet the player numbers keep dropping.

While this is not a direct causation, this is a correlation.

And while there are other issues that probably factor into a gamer's desire to play this game even more like hit detection and frame rate drop issues, it can be safely concluded that the current trend of a shallower game in pursuit of casual FPS players does not convert those casual FPS players into longer term patrons of the game.

Our desire for a game designed to require a higher level of involvement in its play is a desire for more engagement with a more consistent player base that sustains its numbers despite the latest FPS title release.

A more engaged player base would be a more invested player base and players are loathe to put down a game they have genuine social ties and impressive gamer wow stories that they share with gamers not even playing the game.

But attracting casual players or having casual aspects ( such as redeploy as it stands ) AND making the game deeper are not mutually exclusive ..
The game Imo should incorporate both..

It should be casual enough that someone can jump in for a quick blast if they have 30mins

BUT

With a deep and strategic core that allows those that wish to delve deeper to do so.

Anyone can just grab a mossie fly to the battle and jump out.

It not a big deal with people move around using reeploy

But unfortunately, the redeploy as it stands is in direct contradiction with anything approaching deep.

For reference, I use deep like this: A variety of appealing strategic moves that the three sides can take.

If a particular strategy becomes the optimum and thus THE appealing strategic move, the game ceases to be deep.

In this sense, as an example, the game Paper Rock Scissors is a minimalistic deep game.

As it currently stands in PS2, it is not deep because quick redeploy of overwhelming defenders is the dominantly appealing strategy. It has eliminated a lot of desire to have attacks that do much else than counter that strategy by spawn camping, rather than a focus on a more combined arms game that involves a wider variety of viable strategies. And I hope you can realize how the game is worse off for making spawn camping and bringing numerical superiority (aka zerging) within the first few seconds of an attack more of a necessary thing.

By spawn camping and zerging are not by products of the redeploy mechanics .. Those do and will exist if redeploy was removed all together .. In fact Imo if you remove the defenders option to redeploy in large numbers to defend against a zerg , you make zerging a more profitable option ..

Zerging and Spawn camping " have become the optimum and thus THE appealing strategic move " ... Changing redeploy will make it even more so..

Well, apparently you don't realize because you are putting words in my mouth so to speak.

I didn't say they are by products of redeploy mechanics, I observed that unless an attacker makes spawn camping with suppressive fire a priority a ******* platoon will pop out of it and the only way to do that at most bases is to bring enough infantry to make the area outside the spawn room exits a No Man's Zone - otherwise, you might as well not even bother attacking.

So the opposite is in fact true, keeping redeploy as it is makes attackers zerging and spawn camping more likely, not less so, as a necessary counter to mass redeploying.

And don't just take my word for it, observe how the Waterson & Mattherson Server Smash played out.



Wrel has also just put up a video addressing this issue and comes up with some interesting ideas.

1. Well it's a massive game, so having to wait extra long to respawn somewhere ("You are 97th in queue to spawn at Hvar tech plant") doesn't sound like it would work. You wouldn't really want to put limitations on lots of players spawning somewhere.

The "limitations" come in the form of dispersed objectives. The better bases have multiple capture pionts so you're forced to spread your troops out to guard them all, and the continent game strongly encourages spread forces too because generally a split zerg will cap 2-3 bases for every one base a concentrated zerg caps.

Those limitations exist now, and the problem is that when you allow teleporting between bases the typical disadvantage of over-zerging a single base disappears: you can secure a base, and then quickly teleport to the next base. Omnipresent zerging is the problem. The only solution is to prevent the zerg from being omnipresent.

The other two suggestions sound okay, but don't feel necessary. Personally I'd rather new players get educated on how to find and get to fights. Not really tutorials necessarily (but those might work) but just lots of passive hints (like if your waypoint said "1000 meters (4:00 by foot, 0:20 by air)" or something and it's just in your face constantly about how bad foot travel is.) Also bases are generally pretty good about vehicle facilities, but sometimes it's really hard to figure out where to go to reach the terminal and that really shouldn't be the case.

They just need to add generators for the spawn rooms now. I was just in a fight that didn't even have 5 people trying too guard against a two dozen soldiers with more or less 40sec or less on the timer and bang! A full platoon in the spawn rooms jumps out and over takes the situation. No warning no nothing just instantly there.

Fair or not that isn't fun we should make an effort to retake ground without it being on top of the enemy within a hairs notice and a quick click. We even did the same at an amp station they almost had it than suddenly out of no were we just overwhelmed them from the opposite side of the map. It didn't feel fair in no way shape or form.

Based on the direction the game is currently going, at the end of next year, what will happen is that after you secure a base, it automatically despawns everyone and they all respawn at the next base automatically.

Redeploy just makes it feel like a bunch of different TDM games on different maps, because there's no need to transit between anything anymore.

It's a massive game with a lot of ways to move around the map so why limit strategic options to just, "I must must must deploy at hvar now because that is the only spawn location that matters if I can't deploy there I rage quit."

Dispersed objectives at a base have been tried. Defenders mass spawn in with more numbers. Go to control point A in mass then go to control point B in mass then so on. It does not disperse forces in the way you might imagine from just saying that the game has dispersed objectives.

"Prevent the zerg from being omnipresent." *shrug* What does that even mean. People will flow around the map by themselves or following orders no matter what movement limits they put in. Unless they make people play the game blind and randomly warp people around the map or something. People knowing how to find fights is actually more of a problem for "redeployside" than zerging. A classic zerg gets in vehicles and moves from base to base like locusts. They don't necessarily redeploy to defend bases that have just gone 50% on the timer.

Some of the posts here make me question if you people even play the same game I do. It's like you've never spent a better part of an hour to capture Crossroads Watchtower, systematically cutting off enemy armor and air with concentrated effort of your teammates, only to see the spawn disgorge a three platoons' worth of people at the very last minute of the cap.

Correlation does not imply causation?

We all know the myriad of problems that drive ppl away:
- too many/easy access to crutchs, like libs/ESF and tanks
- MAX's firepower
- bad hit detection
- lag
- zerging
- spawn room camping/bad base design.

And then we got a very small minority that for some reason thinks that adding downtime, so you can talk with ppl?!?, instead of killing them is better gameplay.

I dont need to talk with strangers, since im more then preoccupied with talk with my outfit mates on vent, talking about how annoying it is that we have to wait before we can continue our killing spree.

Have you ever heared the phrase: correlation does not imply causation? Because its really relevant here.

Watched that and the issue I see is that if you want to limit Redeploy then you need to also try and limit the attacking zerg ..
Such as Sundy / Gals spawning becoming locked when the pop reaches a certain level over the opposition ..

So if you die you can be rezzed but you can't spawn in the Hex even if you died in that Hex .. and if people think " OMG that's to harsh " . Well I thought that was the whole point of Medic's and teamwork , to keep people up and alive rather than to rely on the ability to spawn indefinitely at no cost.

That's if we want proper Infantry logistics ofc instead of vehicles that can vomit up an unlimited number of combatants ..

Hmm, I don't understand your first point. If the enemy has 48+ at Hvar, there's no reason not to let me spawn there if I'm already there. It's only if I'm distant that it becomes a problem.


Dispersed objectives' effect is pretty indisputable. 60 players guarding point A is obviously harder to dislodge than 20 players guarding points A, B, and C. The further and more plentiful the dispersed objectives of the game (both at the base and continent scales), the more the game rewards smaller, smarter forces.

It's just like how an outfit can show up with 6 tanks and beat 12+ enemy vehicles by roaming around the outside of a base (so they aren't engaging the entire enemy vehicle force at one time). It's divide and conquer. Except with dispersed objectives it's a mechanic creating that division for you, and enabling you to out-think your opponent.

What does zerg omnipresence mean? Well...

• Bringing all your players to bear on a target is a massive power advantage.
• Normally that massive advantage comes with a massive disadvantage. By zerging base A, you can't also have players at bases B and C.
• With current redeploy rules, the disadvantage is removed. You can zerg base A, but you also have time to zerg bases B and C. So you're effectively zerging everywhere, all at once (an omnipresent zerg.)

The reasons the last bit is true are a little more nuanced. First it's only possible when bases have a capture time and the defending force can effortlessly transition between bases A, B, and C in less time. The other factor is that the surging zerg force is going to wipe out all the enemy sunderers, which means the attackers cannot immediately begin attacking once the surging force redeploys (which is why an organized outfit can flip a point and kill the sunderers and immediately redeploy to the new target without fear that it'll just flip back once they're gone.)

If you are already there then wait for a medic if you need to get back into the fight that quickly or get allies to place more AMS. Distance should not have the same relevance for respawn really. If respawn made more sense in terms of being too convenient and focussed on individual player experience for local respawns then it would also make more sense in terms of being a too convenient transport option.

Yes. 20 people in a small room guarding a point is not going win against 60 people in a mobile point clearing squad that is what I was saying. This is why distributed points make people prefer to be in a 60 person mobile force than a 20 person camping force. It does not mean that you have three individual 20v20 fights unless people are very disorganised. You argue for this and it is just an argument in favour of systems that work for people in overwhelmingly large highly mobile and reactive groups over splitting up forces over multiple objective points. You are making my point but you are also saying that that mass redeployment and large infantry blobs are really great for the game and the devs should make that style of play more favoured by the spawn system and base design. I don't think that exactly.

Simple fix:

1. Add long cooldown to redeploy (10 min? ) and only useable on bases that are not being capped
2. Increase the bubble radius on a sundy by a huge amount (the one that prevents other sundies deploying too close) OR make it so only 2 deployed sundies allowed per region and increase the resource cost and cooldown of sundies by like 2x.


The problem isn't just redeploying. The problem is Sundies as well and how much you can currently spam them.

I would have no problem with Sundies maybe getting a cert sink that makes them resistant enough to C4 that it would take 4-5 C4 to blow one up , IF you could say have only 1 deployed in an area. Even if you could only have 1 on an attack there is still nothing stopping you from gal dropping (defenders can do this too), or having sundies that aren't deployed on standby if the deployed one gets blown up (a valid strategy). I also think just about all ground vehicles could do with a 20% increase in armor pools if the repair gun got a little nerf.

Actually, that's a really good idea... I always use the Flash. Most of the time, I flip right outside of warpgate and die, haha.

The point isn't that the zerg is going to evenly divide itself up. Like you said, they don't usually work like that.

The point is that with dispersed points, there's more opportunity for a large force to make mistakes. Basically it makes mobility, responsiveness, and discipline be more important to squads/outfits. The larger an organization (squad/outfit) the harder it is to flawlessly manage, so it indirectly weakens (most) zerg forces while increasing how much skill is rewarded.

So yeah, if you have a mobile, responsive, disciplined zergfit you're still going to come out on top. But that described like 10% of zergfits (if we're generous.) Which provides an advantage to smaller groups of players who are better at those skills.

It's pretty evident to me you don't understand social interaction and it's importance to MMOs. Keep on insta-actioning, soldier.