Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes

second fastest unit
flies over terrain
more hitpoints than a tank
10 times the DPS of a tank

Yeah who woulda thunk

Yeah before the lib changes which were very minor despite what some would have you believe, very few flew libs before the update and fewer still will fly them after. So much for the air game.

As someone else pointed out, this is not to help infantry, it is to pave the way for the new vehicle.. And i think its kind of ironic the attitude of some people toward libs because the new air machine is going to make the lib seem very mild. You will wish you had good ole libs back.

Of course after all the nerfs of everything, consumer confidence is at an all-time low. I know i won't ever spend any more cash on this game except for my membership. So its possible the new plane will never get off the ground. Who wants to spend money or even certs on things that will get nerfed in 2 months.?

It is a bad thing considering that a skilled ESF has 90~% chance of victory against 2 skilled Lib crew people.

It was relatively balanced for skilled gameplay. So SOE lowered the bar, making a skilled Lib lose to unskilled ESF pilots. As if players who pull ESF are somehow entitled to get Lib kills by virtue of their vehicle choice. Where is the skilled gameplay? Where is competitive gameplay?

Does anyone seriously think this encourages competitive gameplay? Or is our goal to make this game as casual friendly as possible?

I too volunteer to fly a dev for a day and hear their thoughts afterward. Most of my air to infantry occurs near 120m off the ground and 150m from target. Its not a single person that kills a lib usually, its 1 tank shell + a one arm burster + a lock on missile + a tree

If the tank-buster is vastly superior to the vector why is 100 certs?

Is it possible that players that have seen in the past year that the tank-buster outperforms a vector have built their play-style to match the tank-buster giving us libs that use canyons and trees to hide their approach, eliminate a sunderer in 6 seconds from a distance of 30m and escape just 8 seconds later with 1/6 health. As it has been said before a liberator against 6 infantry lives forever. A liberator against 30 players lasts 8 seconds.

I would also note that a base design heavy on separated buildings leads to vehicles watching courtyards while a base heavy on walls, octagon, is loved by air watching the choke-points. But what do I know, I think heavy assault missiles and base defenses should cost "a" resource.

That's your opinion, and I disagree. It's not a bomber, but you seem to think it's one. It's a gunship by every description. The Liberator in PS1 was a Bomber, the Liberator in PS2 is a gunship.

Skiing wasn't supposed to happen in Tribes either...but it made the game GREAT.

Like my sig says, "If you're in an ESF and you get hit by a Dalton, you only have yourself to blame."

"Rocket pod effectiveness against vehicles is being reduced."

You mean increased... Right?... Please tell me I'm right...

To be more serious: I feel currently they are under powered against ground. I've not had any issue after coming back with ESFs at all from the ground point of view. Liberators I feel are ok right now. Still barely a bother but enough of a bother that they can be used in organized groups. After flying my ESF with rocket pods it's basically still worthless unless targeting infantry.

This is just my opinion from my experience from playing a few hours yesterday. I'm not sure if they are trying to make it so you have to swarm to even play in the air or something...

This isn't the military, the VS shoot lasers, Liberators can hover and spam targets with 150mm projectiles, and ESF's can do a reverse maneuver.

Comparing a game to real life things in most cases is a really bad idea. They aren't the same.

Since Liberators are clearly overpowered and the constant spamming of tanks and libs is pretty annoying, it's good I think.

But ESF are again nerfed because Libs should be the air anti-vehicles plane.

ESF are already really weak and, contrary of tanks and libs where pilots can stay motionless to aim, require lots of skill to fly, aim and shoot during a fast passage and survive.

So, you'll need to buff ESF in some(s) way(s) : make them the real air anti-personal plane by bringing back to the rocket pods their original radius and power and/or increasing greatly the durability of ESF.

Because actually, ESF have clearly no role, and their role should not be batling others ESF (because it's pointless : their role should be to contribute to a capture, so ground oriented).

So after doing some testing with MBTs main cannons, firing on various targets, including libs... I'm not entirely sure an armor nerf is actually needed.

Here's the number of shots it takes I found, firing at the front of a stock lib in the VR training, to kill said lib from full health:
Vanguard, AP: 3
Vanguard, HE: 5 (4 sets it on fire)
Vanguard, HEAT: 4
Prowler, AP: 5
Prowler, HE: 8 (7 may have set it on fire - I didnt check that)
Prowler, HEAT: 6 (5 sets it on fire)
Magrider, AP: 3
Magrider, HE: 5
Magrider, HEAT: 4

And here's the raw footage (Lib's near the latter end, before the ESF): http://sierrabrown.me/ps2weaponcompare/

I didn't actually record this, but I vaguely remember from previous runbs that a AP Lightning is about 4-5 hits to kill a lib.

This seems about reasonable to me.

The arrogance that is showed by people who play air 24/7 is too shameless these days, its not like it has higher skill ceiling than playing full ground infantry 24/7 but what it really is just a compensation for lack of actual motoric skills as well as mind ones.

The libs did more bad to the game than anything lately, you all seem like a bunch of air autists if you still think it didnt deserve hard toning down after all these spawn camps and BR5 farmage.

Just imagine BR1-2 logging in and getting spawn camped i.e. insta gibbed by air bullsht spam from br100 autists, you are all thinking too much abotu yoruself and your pointless precious farms, not the game, thats the fact obviously .

Games populations since beggingins have been on huge letdown all because of bullsht spam.

And also what is the point of farming XP in this game and kills if you are doing it by investing 0 effort, especially if you have been playing for more than 50days, srs, do something with your life nerds.

Air should have been a simple force multiplier not a resorting unit when you need certs and kdr boost by just clicking around the screen without thinking at all..

It's less of a nerf and more of a reverting an unneeded buff ..

What you're missing is that we recognize the need for the Liberator to be toned down. In particular, the resistance changes that came with the Liberator update was some kind of sick joke by the Devs to promote the attitude you're displaying this very moment. But what's happening here are changes that are not going to do a thing to keep people who want to farm from farming. Its only affecting the players who do anything other than what they want to fix.

Edit: forgot to raise awareness of the **** base designs in regards to spawn rooms. little shacks or buildings separate from other structures, and usually with very little cover. This invites farms from air, armor, AND infantry. One reaction SoE has had in the past to alleviate their monster oversight was throwing up walls around a great number of bases, effectively removing tanks from the equation of taking/defending said bases.

I gotta say, these aren't minor changes, these affect the base moment to moment gameplay. I get the numbers that were looked at (even if we weren't told about all of the data looked at) what I want to know is the other part of the equation. What does "bring it in line" mean? Where is the vision for how things should play out? I could understand these changes better if I knew where this was going.

Is the focus for a one on one MBT fight meant to be about mobility or being in the right place prior to starting? I can understand both methods, setup is just as important as being able to out maneuver your opponent. But if the game is being designed to lean towards one over the other, I'd like to know so I can make my purchases accordingly to how I like to play. I mean, this update will make my engineer laugh like a mad man with all of his tank mines due to the reduction in range in MBTs, so at least I've got that going for me.

Personally, I've had very few issues with Liberators. There are some fantastic gunners and pilots out there, but when 3 burster maxes get pulled, the pilot is gonna start sweating. I think someone else said it quite well, we'll see less Libs being pulled as it's just too hard currently to get a Lib into a large fight and even less so after this update. I think a better option would be looking at just increasing the resource cost or respawn time on it.

The ESF update annoys me, I like my bombing runs on large groups of bunched up vehicles. I would never do it for the kills, but to soften up the group and make some pull back a bit and repair which would give my empire's ground force the ability to push forward as less damage was coming their way. Making the ESF lean more towards AI and AA doesn't make sense. What if I want to fly my Mossie and hunt sundys? The post makes it sound like the Lib is the best at killing vehicles and nothing else should be used when doing so.

TLDR: What's the game meant to feel like? What's the focus of the game so I know what to expect further down the line? I read the post and wonder how I'm meant to be playing the game if how I am playing doesn't fall under what the vision of the game is in accordance to the changes being made.

Thanks dad. I guess that means all players should float away and not have legs while shooting lasers from theirs heads but they don't because there are elements in this game that reflect reality.

@NODY :

If the process you follow to turn tail and burn away includes standing still and rotating, that's your fault.

My aim is actually great, it's just an additional factor that other MBTs do not force on me. Deal with it, you have advantages you just whine a lot. Check my Stats then tell me if I need to try Infantry weapons on or implying I just suck. Gee.

Trolling? I can keep a Mag attached to surfaces giving clear LOS advantages, I am not sure what it is you think was removed. And people can still pull insane stunts, meaning more casual players can definitely use terrain better than any other MBT because of how the Mag works.

A difference of 10KM is actually an argument? I suppose you speak TheoryCraft, a language that completely eludes me.

Worst weapon system ; Yeah OK it's stabilized, can you compensate for drop and velocity? If not, I suggest what you told me; NEVER use any weapon, you'll Epically Fail. You continue to assume things about my abilities, I will simply ignore your comments about guided Nukes. I have more than 10x exploded to MagRiders tailing me or out maneuvering me even after I flanked with Stealth in my Harasser.

I am not aware of any such thing as 1/2 AP Prowler 100% killing a 2/2 Mag in a situation that you describe or pretty much any other situation. In fact the opposite. So if you can't use your 2/2 Mag to your advantage, then I fully understand your need to speak up and cause drama for your favourite Cert Sledge. Again, Prowler DPS is theory until we get stabilized turrets.

The thing is, I'll stop replying now since you clearly base on paper work, assumptions, a bad attitude and a biased view on MBTs. I understand, I really do, I am just not interested in continuing this debate with you. This sort of answer that you provided is why I just share my views, then leave it alone- Hoping some will read it and actually consider whether I am correct or not. Instead of bringing up ridiculous arguments like +10KM being important, or being in denial about certain things.

But thanks for reading, you know? Cool of you. See ya.

I think when you say "we", you should perhaps say "I" instead. A majority of libchariot pilots and gunners do not recognise the need for libs to be toned down. Instead they often say "it's fine and you're just bad" after randomly nigh on instagibbing a shielded vanguard with a tankbuster.

A vocal minority does not represent a whole. But my point remains: what is happening here are changes that are not going to do a thing to keep people who want to farm from farming. Its only affecting the players who do anything other than what they want to fix. Also the need to raise awareness as to how **** base/spawnroom designs are a big component of the problem and not solely the fault of any one vehicle or weapon.

Right,

First of all I know I will get flamed for writing this response and may also be subject to a lot of hate over this response, but at the end of the day, this is for the benefit of the community and with the game’s best interests at heart. So say what you will but please read with an open mind.

I've hit the stage of having no faith in a fairly substantial portion of the player base, judging what should happen to make the game more enjoyable for everyone and fix the issues that exist off their emotions rather than what really needs to happen based off mechanics and the general flow of the game, sure liberators can be extreme farming machines in the hands of an experienced liberator crew, I can also understand the need to buff dumbfires and AP rounds against liberators, there was no real issue existing with that area anyway prior to the liberator update, so the reason for that being changed was beyond me. I can understand the need to revert it back, sure that is fair enough, but this is really being taken to the extreme with all the nerfing, yes I may be classed as what is commonly what is referred to as a ‘flyboy’ but I don’t spend all my time ground pounding and spawn room camping, the main reason for all these ‘ground bound’ becoming emotional on the forums leading to changes that will not deal with the problem at hand because they express themselves in the wrong way and do not take adequate time to think of the problem and possible solutions that will benefit the community and not benefit a specific group but everyone may be needing to sacrifice something in order to achieve the end goal, compromises need to be made from all parties involved in order to keep it fair for everyone. One of the major contributing factors to all these emotional posts on the forums goes along the lines of people who cannot fly are going to be more likely to start getting all emotional every time they are killed by an air vehicle. SOE you’re not going to achieve the desired goal with this nerf, maybe you should reconsider the changes you’re making and perhaps do a little more investigation in the future before you jump to a conclusion head first that will have such a game changing impact, personally and on the behalf of many others (and this is not just in regards to this update, but all updates) please evaluate all your options first before you decide to just go ahead with what may appear to be a solution but doesn’t actually address the current issue at hand.

The level the liberator is being nerfed is completely ridiculous, Liberators take hundreds of hours of practice to become competent in and master, this update is going completely over the top, it is not that hard to take down a liberator if you know what you're doing. Reverting the old damage back to liberators is understandable but then to start nerfing the liberators Dalton and Tankbuster... let’s face some facts here. The Dalton and the Tankbuster are not exactly ‘easy mode’ weapons, you cannot just decide to hope in a liberator and be competent with them, it takes a lot of practice to become competent with a liberator and its array of weaponry. A liberator is like a flying castle, they are easy to hit with practically every weapon capable of inflicting damage to them the main reasons for this are because of the liberators size and also relatively slow speed. Hitting a ground pounding liberator with a tank is not exactly the most complicated thing to do, all you need is to find a hill or small mound which can give you sufficient elevation on your turret and most inexperienced liberator crews won’t have much of a chance due to the fact they just hover there and don’t bother to keep on the move. Learning to fly a liberator takes a lot of practice and a lot of cert points in order to be able to start holding your ground, anyone has the ability to hop in a tank and be fairly effective whereas flying takes time and dedication, then you need to find yourself a competent gunner for whatever belly you’re using and they need to be able to hit a variety of targets, from ground to air to the point where you can actually be competitive and effective on the battlefield and not taken down in a losing battle by an ESF or other air vehicle. Not only that as a pilot you have to master the angles for your gunner and know when they do or don’t have an angle on a target and how to adjust accordingly whereas with something such as a tank you gunner can see wherever they want and at times more than the driver themself. Liberators do not have that luxury, your survival as a liberator crew becomes very much a combined effort requiring constant communication as all three members are position differently so they may only see a limited area.

The Dalton has already been nerfed against infantry and is nowhere near as effective as it was before the update, to now nerf it's speed and nerf the flight of the shell (increasing the drop) is completely absurd. As it currently is, if an ESF gets the jump on a liberator, unless they are an experienced crew then the chances are they will have a lot of trouble in attempting to deal with the ESF, the liberator weapons takes hundreds of hours to become competent with, for those who have put in the hundreds of hours, yes it may be rewarding to an extent. Let’s just set a few things straight here, the reasons behind some of the bickering that happens here on the forums about the Dalton is because are players are getting emotional over the fact they were killed by a weapon being used for something other than its intended purpose as well as they could have simply been out-skilled by someone who may be classed as a better player, or might of just been lucky. I’ve this can also be seen with players becoming emotional over the fact that they were one hit by an AP tank shell, thus, making it too effective against infantry. These players need to take things into perspective honestly, an argument like that is ridiculous. Another funny argument I’ve heard which is also completely ridiculous is players running around on the ground and then being killed by a direct hit from a dumbfire rocket launcher... please use some logic before you start writing nonsense. The reasons for players taking to the forums as a way of correcting something in game which makes them emotional are as follows(these are in regards to liberators however the same basic principles still apply to), you flew straight at the lib (in which case you clearly have no idea what you’re doing). The pilot and the gunner are both very experienced (you were out skilled) or someone happened to land a 'lucky shot' on you (most of the time a direct result of practice and having the feel for the weapon, allowing you to shoot without even thinking about your shot or the other alternative which is just simply a plain lucky shot). Truth be told, your average player on Planetside 2 does not just decide to hop into a liberator and then go on massive streaks and shoot down every plane they see, it's a result of the time and dedication spent to become proficient with the liberator and the weaponry it contains.

SOE by nerfing the Dalton and the Tankbuster you’re nerfing skill, learning to use a liberator for air to air combat can be classed as quite an ‘art’ to an extent, those who are willing to put in the time and dedication required for it should be rewarded. Then again remember how there was this idea of ‘making the flying game easier for newer pilots’? well I’m pretty sure that this over-the-top liberator nerf does not fulfil this goal, infact it does the complete opposite making the newer pilots stay far away from liberators due to the increasing complexity of them and how defenceless they may be considered. This nerf will not stop the complaining of the ‘ground bounds’ (I could use other terminology but that may provoke too much emotion towards this.) the liberator is OP or ‘over powered’ with it’s ability to camp the spawn rooms and not let anything take a step past the shield barrier which may lead to the commonly known ‘spawn camp gurus’ which there is a rather accurate video of them on youtube but I’m sure we’ve all experienced them at some point or another too scared to leave the spawn room in case of an e-death. What you should be looking at is a way to reduce the liberator’s ability to camp at the spawn rooms not nerf the ability for a liberator to be a versatile asset and defend its self in the hands of an experienced and capable crew. Increasing the drop of the Dalton shell and lowering it’s velocity will not change the fact that liberators will still be able to sit above the spawn room all day.

There are a few ways you can do this, one of these ways is by adding an incentive to use more ‘skill’ requiring weapons such a bonus or specific amount of xp for hitting a liberator with a dumbfire or along the lines of that, or even add a ribbon perhaps medals for hitting aircraft with dumbfire rockets or tank shells. Instead this update will reduce the versatility of the liberator which guess what, is going to increase the amount of liberator just hovering above spawn rooms because they won’t be able to do anything else.

Rather find a way to reduce the spawn camping abilities of liberators where they can just hover all day letting their gunners farm as appose to reducing the versatility. These two rolls balance each other out to an extent, the more versatile the vehicle is the less likely you’re going to see it spawn camping, however the less versatile it is, the more likely you’re going to see it camping spawn rooms, don’t be too hasty to just go out and nerf something in the game SOE just because of people bickering on the forums about their planes being 1 shotted by a Dalton and that’s reason enough for it to be nerfed, meanwhile they have no idea the time spent to be able to pull off that one shot on them. Players need to take things into perspective, and speaking of taking things into perspective there is a great video on this by Wrel

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I can understand the frustration that can be caused by this but if you want to counter it, there is a solution without affecting the game which is you can also put in the time and dedication to become a more competent pilot in order to better deal with the situations. As for the ‘ground bounds’ yes I can understand the frustration caused by a liberator or two hovering over head, a burster max is more than enough to scare many of them off, for the more experienced though it will just be a deterrent forcing them away while they repair or have their nanites do that for them then come back hang around for as long as possible and repeat. This is where dumbfire rockets can come in, a dumbfire rocket by its self is enough to make a liberator think twice, now if you were to have a heavy with dumbfires and a burster max then the liberator crew may think twice if they can make it out of there alive (the chances are they won’t if you hit them and then the burster starts hitting them). It’s all about communication, even if they are just ‘pubbies’ I’m sure they may be more than willing to co-operate as it will be for the good of your team.

The topic of liberators being too quiet and able to sneak up on anything is also valid, they should indeed be louder but then you cannot make them louder and then make the weaponry on them useless, the Tankbuster for example needs the high damage it commands in order to balance the extremely slow velocity of its rounds and the massive amount of bullet drop, also the Tankbuster has a very limited range due to the speed, the drop and also the drop off on the rounds themselves. In order to Tankbuster with any effect you need to be point blank, generally that puts you in the position of highest risk due to the slow speed and acceleration of the liberator and the size of it. Liberator crews can choose their engagements to an extent but if you get jumped by an one or more ESFs there is very little you can do besides engage them, they have superior speed allowing them to choose their engagements whereas you need to deal with every problem as it arises and cannot just flee all the time. But then again in a game such as Planetside 2, with so much action going on and so many players all involved in the same battles it also becomes quite important to maintain constant situational awareness, a skill that comes with experience. For examples many times in the past I have been flying my liberator when there is a tank perched in a higher position where they can see everything and I clearly fly in their line of sight, sometimes even having a shell fired off at me, then to break line of sight but I was clearly heading around in a flank. Then when I come around behind them and kill them with one Tankbuster clip or do substantial damage to them and then let my gunner finish them off they had no idea what hit them because they were simply too focused on what was happening in front of them (not that many liberator pilots take long flanking routes like I do in order achieve maximum effectiveness during the first attempt and catch the enemy off guard.) When I am in a tank if I see a liberator or an ESF flying around I make sure I constantly check the sky and do a full turret rotation every so often so I know what is happening around me, hell I even spawn AP main battle tanks to hunt liberators and ESFs, because it’s fun and at the same time very rewarding if you’re a good shot, I have less than 2000 kills with MBT’s across all my characters and I don’t have much of a problem landing shots on aircraft.

An experienced pilot like myself and a few others know how to use the terrain around to cover yourself as much as possible in order to try and even out the advantages with an ESF, forcing them to come closer to you within your effective range in order to engage, but this is not always possible as a large portion of the time you’re caught out in the open and then what? Then how do you deal with one or more ESFs? You have no option but to engage them and all the advantages lie with them, if the situations turn bleak for them they can outrun you and get away whereas you’re either there until the situation turns bleak for them or they kill you. To then nerf the ability for a liberator to defend its self in these situations is pretty ridiculous. Many of the people who whine about liberators killing their planes when they spawn one (when they don’t practice flying at all) then start getting emotional and have a sook when they are killed by them in the air. MattiAce has some videos on this topic as well in regards to people being killed by a weapon used for its non-intended purpose (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_9HLgGVoBTPTGRoPi9l-mA) and how that can create a lot of emotion and lead players to get emotional on the forums and so on.

I’m not just expressing my opinions here but also those of many other liberator crews and pilots I have spoken with, on the server I play on and also on other servers. SOE please don’t be too hasty in jumping to what you may think is a viable solution and what the community may think is a viable solution as it may lead to further issues arising, please take some time to assess and acknowledge what needs to happen here. I am by no means saying some sort of the nerf to the liberator is unnecessary because I do believe that is being bias and I know something needs to change, I’m just simply trying to get a point across here there you’re going about it in the wrong way, look at your other options first. Rather measure twice cut once as they say as appose to measure once cut twice.

Here are some examples of the skilled liberator pilots, gunners and solo libbers I know of (SOE nerfing the Dalton in the way you are would be preventing pilots like these who have spent the time and had the dedication to become proficient with the weapons to accomplish feats such as these anymore)

Libbers: (in no particular order and I may miss a few)
Pntballa18 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIBxN28S0dNqLeWIDDVyAOg
RePlay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwyq9xnIS31pu0OnwJMnR8g
50percentgenius https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJJN7oz0-0A5nN-_09hKmCg
WycliffSlim https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLJURbanWo6AR6vHi8_pESQ
Inflamess https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWDRscclNDVvfG-gmWcE7Ww
1HP https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDi3zneKFu2Z2OvlqlRSDQ
Justicia https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHlavzVug51DRpkoH6tpZiQ
Seb https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTWDksNLr7jIONyEiA8_o8A
Bottled https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZyKTvr8IRrV0tW2wV65f4Q
Meatsackstehe https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQN9CKtQtv2anvoxcP9GR0g
KaoticSnake (Myself) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQR6E8e1oaSeppnHGpBnU-w

And now a final note to anyone who would like to discuss this matter with me further feel free to do so, I will listen to what you say with an open mind but the basic fact remains you need to take different steps in order to combat the spawn camping liberator issue and these changes are not going about it in the right way.

Ugh.

I am in favour of these changes and overall think they will be good for the game in the long term, I want to see them given time on live to see how they play out and then adjustments/corrections/reverts can be made if/as needed.

Just amazes me how determined people are to believe that an announced change is permanent, like they can't readjust things later. It amazes me just how unwilling people are to adapt to change when it makes an appearance.

@KaoticSnake

Good read, cheers for taking the time to write all that down. Seriously.

I am of the mind that the devs are reactionary and don't have an overall goal in mind of where they want the gameplay to be at. If they have to change the way how the current vehicles work to ensure that a new vehicle that's about to be added will be effective, then it would seem there is a lack of forward planning happening.