This is funny. If you throw an anti infantry gun on the vanguard (or any thank that's not the prowler), you now can't shoot tanks and win anymore. Well, you can ... but you better make sure that you have loads of support by other tanks or ground forces. 2/2 focused AV loadouts are a requirement for tank/vehicle hunting, and tankers are ok with this. In fact, i think that most tankers actually like it this way.
When people talk about how easy it is to fly, Liberator pilots say "no, this takes skill". Then whenever people complain about being farmed by Liberators, Liberator pilots say "this is easy, stop complaining and learn to fly". Flying is either hard or easy. Which is it?
Why do you seem to think all liberator pilots hold the same opinions? What if I said all infantry players think the same thing just because some random guy said something? Like Dread said; "Trash Lib pilots will say all kinds of stupid things about the Liberator that are just ridiculous and don't promote game balance. Ignore those idiots, they don't represent the rest of us"
Not everyone of X category thinks the same thing. However, you're reading too much into my post. I never even imply that even most Liberator users think X. This is what I say: 1.) There were complaints about tanks shooting Liberators. That is a fact. I say nothing about whether or not all or even most Liberator users agreed at the time. I just say there were complaints. 2.) I see Liberator pilots say: - If you're being farmed then just learn to fly, it isn't hard. - Using a Liberator isn't easy, most people who try to fly them barely manage to leave the ground. I don't see all Liberator pilots say this. I don't even see most. I do see them however. And the guy I replied to is one of them. ------------------ Edit: I see why you might interpret my post as saying "all Pilots" but that was not my intention.
No, I didn't. What you seem to gloss over is that vehicles such as the vanguard has to give up a lot to use something like a kobalt. Meanwhile the Liberator (and by extension the ESF) doesn't have to give up anywhere near as much (nothing really when it's the shredder) to get good at a particular role. If they one day decided to make the lib weapons like the tank weapons are the forums would be drowning in lib tears, yet it would be a fair change. And before you say anything along the lines of "but the lib needs it", why? It "works" for tanks, why shouldn't it work for aircraft? Or "but then AA will destroy us", and true, this will happen if you go for weapons that deal with infantry (you know, just like what happens if the tank goes for AI and is met by AV fire), so that's not a good reason either. No, the situation is currently favouring air too much, and as long as this particular problem (and it is indeed a problem) isn't dealt with correctly, the game as a whole will suffer for it.
The lib is ridiculously quiet. It's easier to hear a cloaker behind you vs a large bomber with 3 guns and thrusters, yeah that makes many many senses.
Okay. Think of it like this: the dalton is the AP cannon for the liberator. It excels at killing armor but is bad at killing infantry. Zephyr is HE, it excels at farming infantry but not armor (armor includes air in this scenario). The shredder is like HEAT, except it is too effective at killing infantry due to it's capability to absolutely melt AA MAXes (the only thing defending infantry much of the time). So really, yes, the lib does have to compromise it's armor or infantry killing capabilities just like a tank. MBT and lib resource costs need to be the same, at 400 resources each, because they are pretty much equivalents. I'm not really disagreeing with you, you see Agreed.
To be honest i fail to see your reasoning behind this post. what does this have to do with the liberator engaging a group of people on the ground that fail to shoot back at the liberator chasing it away or killing it. And that after ignoring it for so long instead run to the forums to cry. Or even teamwork for that matter in which case you sure are restricting things a lot. (biased arguments much?) If that is all teamwork is to you i start to wonder how you manage even daily life in society
You forgot larger drop do the Dalton, to avoid weird angling and shooting (To hell with it A2A Daltons)
Yet it's nowhere near the level of what the ground vehicles have to. On top of which the lib has the advantages of being airborne (faster, attack-angles). It all comes back to the different set of standards. What do you do when the impact of 'skill' is removed from one side of the engagement, so no matter how good you are it won't help you? That would suck, wouldn't it?
Compared to the equivalents you mention: Dalton is better at killing infantry, vehicles, and aircraft. Zephyr is better at killing infantry, vehicles, and aircraft. Shredder is better at killing infantry, vehicles, and aircraft. Actually, all of those are better at killing aircraft than all the tank cannons, 2/3 of those are better at killing vehicles than all the tank cannons, and 2/3 of those are better at killing infantry than all the tank cannons.
Being airborne is both an advantage and a disadvantage. Aircraft can't get out of their vehicle to repair without landing. Also, like I said, a lib is a giant slow moving target that everything within render range shoots at. It's near useless during decent sized fights. What are you talking about? There's plenty of things an ESF/other lib can do to kill a lib in an a2a engagement. And if you're talking about tanks, I agree that you should be able to kill libs more easily with tank cannons. Either way, you won't get ganked by a lib if you are near any decent amount of players. Dalton is god awful at killing infantry, my gunner literally switches to the bulldog to kill infantry instead of the dalton. Zephyr is extremely awful against armor/air (have you even played the game before???) and like I said, the shredder needs to be toned down against MAXes. Besides, I farm infantry and shoot down air with my AP prowler all the time (even easier to kill air with vanguard)
I see Liberator pilots say that Liberators are useless during decent sized fights, and then I play the game and see a completely different story.
Really? I can barely keep a lib up for over 5 minutes during primetime Indar (or any alerts). Usually have to relocate to a different continent in order to be effective. Or airzurg.
Maybe it is different for me because I only see the ones that do survive, but when they do it is ridiculous. Have you ever been facetanked to death in your MBT by a 1/3 Composite Liberator who is being nuked by flak? Since the update I have many times. I've also seen Liberators sneak into 48v48 fights, insta-gib one vehicle, then fly away and repeat off/on. Some might find that to be useless, but when I'm on the ground pushing forward and they're shooting back, and then I see Liberators picking apart ground vehicles who can't even fight back, you can see why I don't think that argument is legitimate. I've also been 200m away from an ally zerg and been roflystomped by Liberators. I've been in the middle of zergs and slowly picked apart by Liberators sitting at 600m. So maybe only 1/10 Liberators can get away with this stuff, but it doesn't matter to the people who suffer for it on the ground. You leave the zerg? You're slaughtered by Liberators. You stay in the zerg and think you're fine? Nope. ------------------ If I'm in a Liberator I also rarely feel useless. I feel deterred at times, but rarely do I ever mind myself useless. And you know what? Even if you do, it takes a minute for you to go to a different fight. In my MBT I constantly find situations where I truly am useless, but I don't have the luxury of high-speed flight.
Whatever disadvantage you have is a -direct- result of air being too good in the first place. Besides the landing for repairs part (then again, combat repairs as an MBT isn't exactly a safe thing to do) I don't care about the air-air interaction at this point. No, my issue is how extremely favoured air is towards ground. Simply buffing tanks will only shift the problem without getting near the core of the issue. Did you know that compared to other ground vehicles, and you could also argue compared to infantry tanks aren't really in trouble? Some might even go as far as to say that this interaction is rather good these days (some issues notwithstanding). So buffing could end up doing more harm than good, and it does nothing to the problematic relationship between air and AA. The main point of contention here is how air and ground interacts. Or rather, because air is so strong, so too does the direct counters have to be. But when those aren't around you're positively ****ed, and being hard countered is the worst situation there is. And that's exactly how MBTs (and most lightings) have it when the vultures come flying. Way. Too. ****ing. One. Sided. Feel free to explain why air weaponry has to out-class ground weapons like they do. As it stands they're better in every class relative to the tank guns. Heck, even the scythe L.PPA is a flat upgrade to the Magrider-carried one (once you get 2-3 levels of mag size). Or how the Zepher is a flat upgrade to the best HE tank gun, the P2 HE. Or how the dalton hits for about the same damage as the Supernova FPC, yet reloads more than a second faster. Or how the Shredder is excellent against all targets, while the tank HEAT guns are mediocre (not bad, but not good)? Speaking of the shredder, it doesn't need to be toned down against (just) MAXes; It needs to be toned down against everything (except base turrets).
Whoever brought up the KDR thing is silly. Using Dasanfall KDR is also silly since the API V1 was bugged as ever. I have 130%+ accuracy with one of my shotguns with 13 KDR (of course, the Piston was OP as **** - One Clip MAX Killer). Both vehicles you can bail out of, and I personally don't care what KDR you get in a lib, greater or lesser. Wow dude seriously you need to get out of your aircraft and try the other aspects of the game. You sound so ignorant. Someone earlier was exactly right when they said you need to get in a MBT or a Lighting and kill them. OR you could add every tanker you know to your friends list and then just send one of them a tell when a MBT is bothering you. The reason why Tanks needs to be the best counter to Tanks is because if air could kill ground by itself, which they already can btw, then what would you need ground for? I haven't done one of those obviously biased opinion reversals in a while, but thank you. As a matter of fact, I already have about just every pilot on Waterson on my friends list. Including most of the enemy pilots too. Unfortunately, nobody is going to baby sit my tank. I spend a lot of time just driving, and that is pretty boring to watch over when you can move at 3-4x the speed. I do occasionally ask for help when there's a ridiculous lib pilot in the area that I feel needs to go and I can't take out with my own lib. What I am asking for though is not mind blowingly unreasonable afaik since it's still somewhat better than what it use to be.
The Lib would never be nerfed too hard, as that would turn this game into World of Tanks. The Lib is the one true hard counter to Tanks. Last I checked, vehicles couldn't shoot through walls. Libs/Gals might catch a few idiot light assaults hopping across roofs, and occasionally they'll kill they even stupider people who think they can just hang around of landing pads and nothing will go wrong. They'll even encourage players to stay inside and defend the point from a good position.
