When will Mossy and Reaver get adjusted to get on the same level as Scythe?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Merlock, May 24, 2014.

  1. IamnotAmazing

    yes but the scythe still has a better "overall hitbox" thanks for doing all that math lol
  2. Flag

    What I mean with it is that yes, the scythe has an edge in hover duels, but those are a minority at best. And the other two ESFs are better in other areas, meaning that overall on the live servers the scythe isn't overpowered.

    You seem to disagree, but so far you've not made a more convincing argument than the sky knights and whales who've claimed that it's actually fairly balanced (excluding the AirHammer).

    Besides, if it's such a problem use coyotes. Then the size and shape doesn't matter.
    (considering pitch, yaw and roll is the same for all 3)
  3. zaspacer

    I have certed up Scythe, Reaver, and Mosquito.

    I don't even use Scythe anymore because I fly solo and it is just too slow to get me out of danger. All ESFs with Racer3 + Fuel Pod should be the fastest things in the sky. Keep Mosquito as best regular speed, keep Reaver as best After Burner speed, but move Scythe to the middle speed on both regular speed and After Burner. Until that happens, I will continue to not fly my Scythe and stick to my Mosquito and Reaver.

    I fly the Reaver with Vortek and Mosquito with Needler. Both have their strengths: Needler great at range and to keep bullets going on target, Vortek great for quick damage and close attacks. But the one key area the Vortek is garbage is in Ammo Capacity. Vortek runs out of Ammo far too quickly, making its Ammo Capacity Certs a must and even then it's not enough. Reaver needs its Ammo Capacity bumped up.

    I know the top Aces have confirmed that in a 1-on-1 gentleman duel the Scythe w/ Hover and Fuel Pod is the best ESF. But I am not them, my style requires Racer over Hover, and most my ESF time is not in 1-on-1 duels. For me the Scythe is currently not good enough to use in what I want: speed... so I don't use it.
  4. Aloysyus

    Okay, i might hate myself for arguing like that but... Flag, you have 186 kills with the Scythe. 68 of them with an actual nosegun, 53 with lock-ons and the rest with the lolpods. Seriously. Don't come at me and say i should use these ridiculously overpowered Coyotes. i didn't even COMPLAIN about the Scythe, i said they are a nice challenge. i just stated that in fact they have an advantage in dogfights and even Wycliff said that it's true. And i can tell you that not a single dedicated pilot i know ever stated that the Scythe is balanced in dogfights.

    Sorry man, i try to stay friendly here and all, but i don#t really feel like always being hostiled by guys who have no idea what they are talking about. the same with this guy in the Harasser thread who flamed at me having less than 10h in it. it is just ridiculous.
  5. repinSniper

    No prob ;)
  6. Flag

    I've not claimed to be an expert.
    You have to remember the context of the thread.

    More to the point, my stance on the subject comes from many discussions with people who actually spend an awfully large amount of time in the ESFs. Some of them here on the forum, some on Reddit, and others on TeamSpeak.
  7. Herby20

    <- Number 24 in the world for kills with the M18 Rotary. The Scythe is fine. 1v1, pre-arranged, pass-and-turn fight it is strong, but on the live servers, where the game is actually played in its MMO setting, it is perfectly fine. In fact, I would say the other two ESFs are better for live server gameplay.
  8. Aloysyus

    Well, that still depends a lot on the pilots and what style suits them best but yea... i would say again mass combats are different (like i did to Wycliff) but i was talking about dogfights and stated before that there's always an ongoing argument between metagamers and "objective" gamers. If yo get the jump with a Rotary you are fine, but when 2 Reaver pilots face 2 scythe pilots with a Saron it is still pretty hard because they can damage you from the distance a lot whule they are harder to hit.

    BTW: I tried to check your statistics but for some reason the database for "Herby20" is broken. Don't get me wrong on this, you don't have to be a super-ace to argue with me (i am not an "ace" myself, these are bequ, matti and jella) but my post was about ppl coming at me with almost no experience in the matter they are talking about.
  9. Aloysyus

    Then bring these ppl here. But i have 421h in a Reaver (that's only my main acc as i have 6 accs plus my time on PTS) and i saw your amont of lock-on-usage and i was like... "yeeeaaahhh". Of course the super-aces are better at defending themselves against Scythes but when i face an even skilled pilot in a Scythe he almost always has the advantage. I expereinced it myself, i saw it in mattis videos, i talked to him, i talked to Jella, i talked to other aces. No one ever stated that the Scythe is balanced in dogfights. I agree that mass combats are different but it's not like the Hailstorm is weak and a Scythe can't jump a Reaver...
  10. Flag

    They generally can't be bothered, and honestly, who can blame them?

    SOE seems to ignore this place, so many feels like spending time here would be a giant waste of time.
    Also, MattiAce is extremely biased, to the point where it's not even funny.
    If his opinion is the one you'll refer to, we're done.


    Ps: If you're trying to make fun of my A2A missile use, go on ahead.
    But here's the thing: I don't care enough about using the ESFs that I want to spend the time required to get good with them. But when I find myself in the situation of needing to take to the skies, should I go with the skill-dependant nose guns, or go with the scrub-to-air missiles?
    I went with the latter, because honour duels is not what I'm there for.
  11. Aloysyus

    You have to admit that Matti is a t least a pilot, you are not. And he is by far not the only ace pilot i've talked to. And he has many of them in his videos. I say it again: Every at least decent pilot i have ever spoken to has the same opinion abot the Scythe being superiour in dogfights.

    And concerning the other things: Don't pin this only on Matti, he was an example out of many, many pilots. Raging at him now does not say anything about the issue here.

    About honor duels: That is what i call lack of perspective. On the one side you can write books about your opinion about MBT balancing, regard every issue, tactic and loadout. On the other side you argue here about the greater good, not wanting honour duels, telling me i should use Coyotes... I guess you can imagine what impression that makes on me and other pilots.
  12. Flag

    He is a good pilot, but to him there's only the honour duel that matters.
    That's where his usefulness stops as far as I'm concerned, because that's a truly minor part of the game. Might be important to some, but you can't balance the ESFs around this role and this role only.


    As for myself and MBTs, if you took all I've written about that topic on this forum the last year or so, I'm sure it could fill a book. A boring one, with a fair amount of repetition, but sure.
  13. Herby20

    The problem is, again, even 1v1 dogfights happen very, very rarely on the live servers. It is completely ridiculous to base balance decisions off of them because of it.

    My in game name is actually Herby2O as in the letter O. For whatever reason it wouldn't let me have that name despite it being available. Then one of my friends promptly made a character with the number 0 so I couldn't get it lol. Also, it seems you are mentioning primarily European players. Would I be correct in saying you yourself are a European player?
  14. Flag

    I'd assume as much, but then again, even between them the servers are all different.
    Ceres is different from Cobalt which is different from Woodman which is different from Miller.
  15. repinSniper

    Just another little relation that came to mind here thinking about this topic:

    Goldeneye on the N64. What character would you pick? Jaws or Oddjob? Your buddy would auto lock Oddjob and you would be like "Are you ******* serious!". Why would you decide to use a larger sized hitbox in a FPS aspect when you have the option to take a smaller model. Many FPS's in the future looked at this design model and learned not to repeat it to give an advantage of this scale to a singular individual while having no distinct disadvantages at the same time.

    You want to play Oddjob, play as VS and fly a scythe. You want to play as Natasha or Bond, play as TR and fly a mosquito. You want to play as Jaws, play as NC and fly a reaver. Sure they have distinct disadvantages and advantages, but the fact still remains: There is a sizable and noticeable difference in the relation of the hitboxes when summed from multiple directions that directly affects gameplay mechanics; even if it's impact is minor in certain scenerios and major in others, it still exists as a handicap.
  16. nukularZ

    Same here. For 1vs1 fighting, I prefer the Scythe. But for everything else, the Mossy wins. It's sort of BS to me how "easy" it is to hit and run or disengage from a 1vs1 and get away in a Mossy. And in group fights, Mossies will annihilate Scythes and Reavers because Mossies have thin tube profiles are not easy to track and land shots on - at least not compared to a Scythe where its swing span will give up it's next movement, or bloated Reavers.

    The Reaver is just unfair in how large its hit box is from just about every angle. And because it's slow (AB max speed doesn't mean a thing unless you give up your secondary) it's forced to fight until death with that disadvantage.

    I can accept that each ESF can be good at its own thing, and its clear when it comes to the Scythe and Mossy, but I just don't see it in the Reaver. The whole "they're good up close" thing is totally negated by the fact you can hear one coming from a mile away and take out a good chunk of its health before it can even get into that range where it's supposed to be good.

    But I am also at the point where I just don't care anymore. I'm no longer a dedicated pilot like I used to be, and as I result I do not play PS2 as much. SOE doesn't listen to pilots so there's no point in even bothering. The air game as a whole has really deteriorated over time.
  17. Govedo13

    I love how you missed in your nerf band wagon the very important part of discussion in the whole 5 pages.
    Scythe drops like stone with nose down facing ground compared with the other 2 ESFs. I am total noob pilot and I feel better in Mossi and 100 times better in Reaver both without air frames compared with hoover 3 Scythe.

    I just feel that Scythe even by having the best vertical thrusters drops down a way too fast and it is a lot harder to control compared with the other 2 ESFs.
  18. Pixelshader


    you're just doing it wrong brah

  19. Flag

    And when the hitbox doesn't meant anything? Which is the case for Flak and lock-ons?
    Then what?
  20. repinSniper


    What about when damage doesn't mean anything? Which is the case for Flak and lock-ons? Then what?

    What about when bullet velocity doesn't mean anything? Which is the case for Flak and lock-ons? Then what?

    What about when RoF doesn't mean anything? Which is the case for Flak and lock-ons? Then what?

    This does not mean anything, there is no relation to a damage source, therefore why are we comparing them? They are all nearly equal with their interaction with these sources, does this make the other areas where they provide an advantage or disadvantage invalid?


    What about when Max Afterburner Speed, Max Vertical Ascent in hover mode, and Max Forced Decent Speed in hover mode mean something vs. Flak and lock-ons? Yes. Do they have relevance in other aspects also? Yes. (see Reaver)

    What about when Max Horizontal Speed, Max Horizontal Speed with Thrusters and Forward Pitch, and Max Noseclimb and Nosedive Speed mean something vs. Flak and lock-ons? Yes. Do they have relevance in other aspects also? Yes. (see Mosquito)

    What about when Max Breaking, Lowest Idle Decent Speed, Max Lateral Pitch Up Speed and Lowest Lateral Pitch Up Speed Loss, Max Lateral Pitch Down Speed and Lowest Lateral Pitch Down Speed Loss, and Max Average Banking Speed and Lowest Average Banking Speed Loss mean something vs. Flak and lock-ons? Yes. Do they have relevance in other aspects also? Yes. (see Scythe)

    The main point here is many proponent's of certain ideals ignore aspects or include aspects of ESF performance. You may place heavy value on certain areas and less on others, but it does not mean they do not exist. Understanding if the differences are acceptable or unacceptable in application and balance is the goal. Major differences that exist with large gaps in between the values with no appropriate compensation to fill that gap using other methods is the problem here.


    One key aspect that I have seen ignored in my perspective is the Scythe's ability to maintain velocity during pitching up, pitching down, and banking turns. I would like to see this taken into account, as long as every single aspect of the other ESFs are being critiqued too. These values are actually very large in terms of ratios between the ESFs, and I will list a few here:

    Mosquito:
    pitchUp ~145 pitchUpLoss ~ -75 pitchDown ~150 pitchDownLoss ~ -70 AvgBankingSpeed ~150 AvgBankingVelocityLoss ~ -70

    Reaver:
    pitchUp ~127 pitchUpLoss ~ -73 pitchDown ~135 pitchDownLoss ~ -65 AvgBankingSpeed ~110 AvgBankingVelocityLoss ~ -90

    Scythe:
    pitchUp ~145 pitchUpLoss ~ -55 pitchDown ~160 pitchDownLoss ~ -40 AvgBankingSpeed ~158 AvgBankingVelocityLoss ~ -42