Thoughts On Rocket Balancing (AI)

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by NoctD, May 15, 2014.

  1. NoctD

    I'm not certain I understand all this angst against getting killed by a rocket launcher, but dumb fired rockets are a simple staple of the game and changing them drastically makes no sense whatsoever. But like all things in the game, there should always be a risk/reward balance and choices should have consequences.


    G2G/G2A launchers - these have the best projectile velocity (ie. least drop) and actual scoped sights on them, making them the easiest to use. They also do the least damage to vehicles. These launchers should NOT OHK base infantry (except maybe infiltrators who have less base health but an infiltrator shouldn't be running in front of HAs either) at all, unless they've already taken damage.

    Default rocket launchers - have intermediate projectile velocity, more drop, and iron sights. The launchers should OHK base infantry, but Flak armor should be a hard counter option for them. Let's face the facts, Flak despite buffs still is rather under utilized, and making a certain level of Flak absolutely protect from OHKs from these rockets is a good thing, making Flak a more valid and solid choice.

    Decimator - crazy drop, super slow speed, and only the pros use them. But these should hit hard and drop any infantry instantly regardless even if they had Flak 5... if you're getting Decimatored constantly as a non-MAX infantry, you really need to work on your situational awareness big time.


    That's all SOE needs to do as far as rocket balance goes. It mixes risk/reward to ease of use and validates the use of proper counters by players.

    No need for all this crazy QQing on forumside, just make all the different launchers function with proper risk/reward balance, drawbacks and benefits. Changing dumb fire too much will affect other balance issues like the viability of using them vs. MAX units and vehicles, because if they're made too weak and a HA is caught with one in hand while facing infantry, it can be a death sentence.
    • Up x 5
  2. DFDelta

    I don't get the complaining about rockets either.

    If they miss, they now take about 50 minutes to reload or change weapons (or at least a time that feels like that in combat) and can be killed at your leisure.
    If they hit (which should pretty much never happen outside of point blank, and there a shotgun would have been better) they are still defenseless to your teammates (you're running around with teammates in tow, aren't you?) and can be killed at their leisure.
    Rocket AI-ing is one of the worst things you can possibly do with your heavy.

    If you're dieing a lot to it, maybe you should stop standing around gawking at the empty air like the headless sniper bait that you are.


    (the "you" in this post is read as "the audience", not as in... well "you")



    To get on topic, yeah those tiers, for lack of a better word, would work well I think.
    Though I always thought max rank flak already protects infantry from non-decimator OHKs.
    I run flak on everything except LA and I can't even remember when I last died to a rocket. Got quite a few ones where I ended up with health in the red though.
    • Up x 4
  3. FateJH

    I'll add:

    Lancer VS22 - Though it is a penetration weapon rather than an explosive one, the Lancer is not affected by target's body armor. It strips away personal shields with a level two charge before damage is applied. Unguided shots are slightly more accurate over distance than currently, but perform no better in damage.

    NC15 Phoenix - Two-shots Infantry, even if one hits the head. Additionally, the rocket can be abandoned by user in mid-flight and will transform into a normal rocket, but will drop faster than a Decimator as a consequence (more like a HEG).

    T2 Striker - You're joking, right?
    • Up x 2
  4. NC_agent00kevin

    This whole 'rocket warrior' thing is silly. Its a great way to maybe get one kill then die. Thats assuming we are talking about the dudes running around using it as a primary instead of the dudes using it to break stalemates in biolabs and those 2 story buildings...in which case they are working as they should.

    Personally, I think its funny when a BR 12 rounds a corner with a dumbfire and shoots me in the face with it.
    • Up x 9
  5. Krayus_Korianis

    Rocket's don't need balance. People need balance with their emotions.
    • Up x 13
  6. Astraka

    Most new or bad players are lucky to get even one kill with regular weaponry before they die. What difference does it make if they miss and die with their Rocket Launcher out, when it was probably going to happen regardless of the weapon equipped? At least with Rocket Primary there is a good chance they're able to kill someone before going down.

    There is no Risk v. Reward if you're going to die with regular weapons anyway.
  7. jiggu

    Heavy Rockets have to be less than 1% of my deaths. I can understand that it sucks to die to one, but they're a one-trick that doesn't even have a high chance of working. If you pile up with people you are going to be blown up, so don't pile up and woosh, you don't get blown up as easily.

    In my opinion it's an l2p issue, but forumside really does not like learning how to play.
    • Up x 10
  8. Winfield

    As much as I hate dying to Heavy rockets, I die to my own stupidity more often than rockets.

    Nerfing these rockets would be a slippery slope...I really don't know if it would be good.
    • Up x 5
  9. TheShrapnelKing

    No. Stop with this whole idea. This is lunacy.

    The Whining Nerf Court of Public Opinion must be shut down and ignored.
    • Up x 2
  10. Hatesphere

    Completely unneeded in my opinion the rockets are fine. It allows you to deal with one person in close combat (if lucky), then get mowed down by his buddies, or take advantage of someone who is unaware of you.
    • Up x 1
  11. Iridar51

    I believe, dedicated A2A and A2G launchers have faster velocity only if they've been fired with a lock. Dumbfired rockets "do not accelerate" and I feel they are slower than dumbfire rockets of the default launcher.
    • Up x 2
  12. Drippyskippy

    I agree with this. Unfortunately, rockets don't have a risk/reward structure against infantry when used by semi competent players.

    If you make it to where dumb fire rockets cannot one shot an infantry player with max health/shields it won't have an effect on MAX's or vehicles. So, you are saying if you are caught with a rocket launcher in your hand you should still be on even footing/ have an advantage (depending on what weapon your opponent has) on your opponent? Well then why don't they buff reload times to instant so your never at a disadvantage to your opponent or buff pistols to one shot enemy's so that you aren't at a disadvantage when your primary weapon is out of ammo? Fact is, when you get jumped unexpectedly by something you SHOULD be at a disadvantage. Think about if you pull a Skyguard tank. Your pulling it to take down air, but when a normal tank comes after you, you are at a disadvantage. This is how rocket launchers should be, but aren't.

    Rocket launchers should only hit at point blank range? I'm guessing you have never had to face players who use rocket primary's a lot and can hit their shots within 30 meters pretty reliably. Go make a TR or VS character on Matherson and hunt for CML members (NC faction), they will show you how wrong you are.

    Making assumptions about people "standing still is your own fault" is highly ignorant.

    So, you believe it to be funny when a scrubby player kills you through the use of a easy and cheesy weapon? I personally wouldn't call it that.

    This is getting old. Apparently, you think a guy from NNG and a guy from DA who have expressed issues with rocket primary's on infantry just need to learn to play. Well guess what, both NNG and DA were in the NA finals for community clash and DA are the world champs. Which is the closest thing this game has to a competitive environment. My infantry stats aren't shabby either, so when your telling people to L2P, your talking to people who are most likely better than you. Think about that for a second before you decide to post again.

    The amount of ignorance in this thread is just astounding. If you want to actually read up on some good points against rocket primary's and see a few good solutions you should go read the other 2 rocket primary threads. Be informed before you decide to post, that is a standard I set for myself.

    Simple solution: Make rockets not OHK non max infantry. Gives the weapon higher risk with its use and reduces the amount of explosive spam in this game. There are other solutions that have been proposed that are pretty decent, but my personal opinion is to follow in the footsteps of PS1 regarding rocket launchers.
  13. Latrodectus

    This is probably true for me too, but that's only because rockets have to compete with scat MAXes and Liberators.
  14. Nepau

    The only thing I get from all this Anti Rocket Primary talk is the feeling that it will lead to "OMG NURF MAXES NOW!!!!" threads as soon as the people get the changes the want. I really see this issue as people going after a Small issue, that in the end will not actually improve the game in any meaningful way and will more then likely cause larger issues down the road.

    That being said, if I am reading the damages right, wouldn't Flak 5 armor make it so you can't be 1 shot by it anyways? If that's true then I guess that's the Trade off you get for not using it for something like Nanoweave.
    • Up x 1
  15. NC_agent00kevin


    Yes indeed I do. Sometimes I even laugh over TS3 about it.

    If a rawket doesnt 1 shot you, something else will. Have a sense of humor about it. :D
    • Up x 3
  16. faykid

    I approve of your message. If devs listen to whiners (i hope not) and nerf RL, i hope they'll do it your way at least.

    Prince Bolkonski eventually died in War & Peace to a grenade fired at him by a random guy who was not more skilled than the Prince or even knew what he did. Prince Bolkonski's K/D was 0 that day, he didn't even go into battle before the wound. But he got over it. And so should everybody who's got killed in this game by a random explosion, no matter who caused it.
    • Up x 1
  17. Mustarde

    I like the compromise the OP is trying to strike, but it doesn't go far enough. My personal opinion is that dumbfires shouldn't OHK infantry. That's the only change I feel is needed - no changes vs. maxes or vehicles, no change to the mechanics or accuracy/equip time of a rocket. Just the resistance values vs. infantry.

    And despite the rhetoric, I don't see myself as whining. I have an opinion about a game balance issue surrounding what I consider a "cheese" tactic. One that is becoming more and more prevalent in the game. So I made a video and a few posts about it to explain my stance.

    The reality is, I haven't died much to rockets. I hate dying to explosives so much in this game that I pretty much run flak 5 on every class, including my infiltrator. But when I explored the rocket primary style of gameplay, most of my victims couldn't afford flak 5, and almost all of them were easily farmed by my ML-7. The entire experience was easier and cheesier than I thought it would be. I collected so many kills that I had to cut nearly 30 minutes of pure killing in order to get a 7 minute video. It really makes me laugh when I read responses saying how difficult and "risky" it is to use a RL, just after I posted a video showing how simple it really was.

    Either way, I know higby and a few other devs watched my video and have discussed this issue. They may not see a problem and keep things as is, or perhaps I've convinced at least someone to take another look at this dynamic between rockets and infantry. It's not up to me to convince anyone else of my opinion, nor get into constant back and forth with other players over this.

    Maybe I'll edit some bonus footage from the Rocket Hero video this weekend just for fun.
    • Up x 1
  18. Takoita

    Upon further reflection, I have come to conclusion that we need more effective anti-infantry man-portable explosives, not less.

    What did you think when you were at a biolab fight last time? Maybe it is just me, but I thought that we didn't have enough weapons that would discourage the enemy from bunching up in one place and closing down, say, a landing pad entrance until they got bored and left. Neither rocket launchers, nor frags (despite an almost constant stream of both bandied about by both teams) are cutting it anymore. (I'm not even gonna menton UBGL.)

    However, I don't think that making any of the existing rocket launchers into a doom cannon is the right way to go. (Decimator could use something different to make it more unique and I wish for a dumbfire mode for both Phoenix and Striker, yes, but I do not advocate any of them to become a 'do everything' weapon.)

    What, in my opinion, we need is good ol' drum-fed six-shot grenade launcher. Maybe not drum-fed and maybe not six-shot, but you get the idea. (The NS shotgun that no one wants but still receive anyway could be re-purposed into firing something like UBGL rounds and serve as the NS baseline for the new weapon type, by the way.)

    Firing modes and ammo types could be figured out later to add even more flavour and function to infantry meatgrinders, but the basic function of killing bunched up people wholesale should serve as the goal regardless of how it is achieved mechanically.

    Class availability... Forcing HA to choose between anti-tank and anti-infantry in their tool slot could be good. Or maybe it should go to medics who choose to forgo their revive tool to emphasise the 'combat' part of the class? LA could use the tool too, even if with limitation of smaller ammo count when compared to other classes or just limited to NS 'semi-auto UBGL' and no empire-specific goodies.

    XXX

    Current rocket launchers could then lose splash damage and become direct hit only, IMHO. (But only after getting better projectile trajectory and velocity back; the range on dumbfires is kinda lacking.)
    • Up x 1
  19. Czerny

    The problem I see with those that are calling for rocket nerfs is that they are trying to balance it around 1v1 gameplay. Yes, someone killing you without very much effort with the rocket is not balanced at all in a 1v1 situation. However, it would be foolish to balance Planetside this way. We play a game based on large teams and large battles and in these situations rocket primaries are just extremely inefficient. They have far lower KPM potential than just about every other weapon in the game and have limited ammo with long reload times. In fact, a medic can revive the person you just killed in the time it takes to reload. A pump action shotgun is just as powerful in most situations, without most of the rocket's downsides.

    tldr; 1v1 balancing is not for Planetside, rockets are balanced more or less fine in large battles

    And in regards to Mustarde's video, a sufficiently good player can do that and more with any weapon. The vast majority of people you see with rocket primaries are not Mustarde and will be nowhere near as accurate.
    • Up x 3
  20. Drippyskippy


    You are absolutely right. In the end all that matters is what the devs think about the issue. All I can hope to do is be vocal enough to have the devs take another look at how rocket launchers are impacting the game and what they believe is their main purpose. However, this is really the wrong place to do it, should have started it on reddit. Its widely known most of the devs in a position to change things don't read these forums. I have spent waaay too much time in these forums trying to convince people otherwise by making what I believe to be solid points/arguments. Honestly, It doesn't matter if I change the minds of the pro rocket primary crowd. I would like to change people's minds, but the reality is most people form an initial opinion about something and regardless of what the other side says they keep their opinion.