Thoughts on Lib "Counters"

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Macho, Apr 20, 2014.

  1. Hoki

    Its too tanky.

    The things that should own the **** out of them, don't. Noseguns, rockets, flak, cannons, walker.

    The amount of effort and time these weapons require to down a lib, do not match the offensive potential of the lib. Not even close.
    • Up x 2
  2. Macho


    The Dalton is absolutely not overnerfed. I think it's finally right where it should be. My gunner and I run AtG all the time and use the Dalton because we think it's still a better option vs. armor. We refuse to run a hybrid AtA/AtG lib. We only engage air when we have to. We still can wreck armor (which is what the Dalton is about) but we can no longer effectively suppress infantry. 3 shots per infantry is a good thing for Dalton balance.

    As for the Shredder... its DPS is too high for the amount of accuracy needed against large targets. Right now, there is no down side to it. There's no such thing as missing with it and it's pretty good at wrecking everything. Personally, I'd like to see its damage lowered against heavy armor and infantry but maintain its effectiveness against light armor... but that's just a random opinion.

    And as for composite armor... it's broken right now. A lib should not take 3 tank rounds unless its HE. An AP tank round should put a Lib down to 1/4-1/3 health.
    • Up x 1
  3. lawn gnome

    woooo! a dedicated liberator pilot that isn't simply spewing the "everything is fine" party line. i salute you sir!

    on a side note i thought the dalton may have had a recent buff because in my skyguard i was taken down in 3 shots by one which i don't remember ever happening before, maybe i just ran into a gunner who knew how to lead shots and i had never been hit directly before.

    as for my skyguard i currently like how tough liberators are. it is a 3 person vehicle that should be sturdy and with a semi intelligent pilot should almost always be allowed to escape. what i do have a major issue with is it having the tankbuster that can drop an MBT in 3.3 seconds and a lightning in a much shorter time (with DPS far higher than any of the dedicated belly guns or anything else in the game period), while still maintaining a sufficient rate of fire to reliably hit ESF (i am still learning how to pilot but hitting ESF with the TB is not proving difficult so far, basic survival is a challenge because it is so incredibly different from my skyguard [the skills i already had do almost nothing for my survival as a pilot] but i am learning and extending my life span).
  4. Mrasap

    Nobody knows why they changed it, not even lib crews.

    We usually run NAR and only during huge battles we consort to composite armor to do hit-and-run flybys on tanks and sundies.
    • Up x 1
  5. Silkensmooth

    I shoot down a lot of libs. I don't see a problem with them. If they are alone, I, as a solo pilot can usually kill a lib with 3 people in it. Sometimes they get me, mostly they dont. There are a few amazing pilots that you just have to run from, but even then you are keeping them off the ground targets.

    TLDR; A lone lib is still a cert cow imo.
  6. Mianera

    Honestly, I reckon that it would get sorted if HA's AA launchers got a x1½ or x2 damage increase. 1 HA with a AA launcher will never bring down a Libby. The libby can hover over spawn and getting a lock is difficult enough already.

    I mean, you need to go back and get ammo for the third time before a AA launcher will have given enough damage to take down a libby. I fail to see the point of AA launchers really.

    Hell, you don't even kill a ESF with 2 shots. And I garantee you that any and every ESF will run off after taking the first rocket.

    I would like to see libbies being higher in the air working as bombers. Not spawn room / outpost campers.
  7. BengalTiger

    Pilots don't need to worry about:

    C4 fairies, mines, terrain (pull up = you don't get stuck/roll over; no need to search for accessible paths as nothing is off limits), enemies outside their reach (they can rotate and face everything), the fact that getting away from an engagement means that either there's bonus damage due to rear shots or that it takes forever (no matter the escape route), invisible guided missile launchers with infinite ammo and no cost to deploy, enemies appearing behind (on top) via very high altitude Galaxy drops, groups of cloaked Flashes armed with Furies and many, many others.

    Then there's the fact that it takes 3 tanks firing a salvo with all guns, or a fully crewed Lib firing a salvo with all guns at close, very close range to destroy a Lib (nearly) instantly, while all ground vehicles have counters that destroy them without warning, which require a single player sneaking up to them and living for 5 seconds (or not living at all if it's a Flash cruise missile).
    • Up x 1
  8. umbrellapower

    It's because Phobos and Mystik are one of the few stand-up Lib crews on Connery that truly excel at the anti-armor role and are also good people. You'll rarely see other Lib crews doing what Phobos/Mystik do because they're afraid of risk and hurting their KDR. It also shows in those types of crews' forum posting, fanatically defending their abuse of questionable game mechanics, because what in the **** are they going to do when it turns out they're only good at cheesing?

    That's because most Lib crews on Connery have no idea how to use their aircraft to properly engage ESFs. If they did, there would be half as many ESFs in the air due to the mathematical impossibility of ESF health/damage output winning versus Shredder/Walker Lib health/damage output if the Shredder gunner is half competent and can aim in the general direction of an ESF. All you can do is hope that these Zepher crews don't turn into A2A Shredder and Walker/Hyena crews in the future.
  9. PKfire

    Quite so, that and Comp armor getting a huge buff vs anything other than flack was a little beyond me as well.
    • Up x 1
  10. Dead soldier

    If you have a single nosegun or 30 flak rounds kill a lib, imagine that in large scale. Liberators can't really affect big battles and this change would make them only useful in 12-24 battles. Besides galaxies, air can't play a role in big battles with the extreme amount of AA but dominates in small battles from the lack of AA.
  11. axiom537

    Here are my thoughts from another post that I made on this subject... AA-MBT Variant

    Ground vehicles should have an equivalent hard hitting counter to Liberators & Galaxies, but it should require Skill, Coordination and cost similar resources and man power to operate. The reason this sort of weapon is necessary, is that FLAK or Lock-ON type weapons are inevitably more effective against ESF's because of their much lower HP and we do not need another form of AA to kill ESF's, the skill level to pilot them is already incredibly high.

    We need a weapon that can pack a punch, especially at range but not be as precise or forgiving as Lock-ons and FLAK, therefore not be very effective against ESF, which already need to contend with Flak and Lock-ons at every turn.

    With the upcoming changes to the Galaxy and possible implementation of a PROXY or AMMO resupply Galaxy, ground vehicles will need a weapons platform that can dish out damage to the more heavily armored Liberators and Galaxies, on a more 1 vs 1 basis.

    I suggest a MBT Variant, that has a main gun that can angle up to nearly 90 degrees and fire an AP like round or smaller rounds in fast succession, think Auto-Cannon similar to the viper but with less random spread. The big change will come in the form of the secondary gunners seat, which will be converted to a Laser target designator.

    The secondary Laser Target Designator, when aimed and fired at an Air craft will paint a target box around the Air craft, so that the Main gunner will know which Air vehicle is being targeted and give the main gunner a flight path prediction vector as well as a lead target reticule. ESF will be too small for this too work on them, so the gunner will not get any assistance vs ESF.

    This designator will use a targeting computer to calculate the projected flight path of the Air craft being targeted indicated by a line and provide the gunner with a circular reticule, that indicates the approximate area the gunner will need to fire in order to hit the Air craft. This will be a guide meant to assist the gunner, but will not guarantee a hit, skill will still be a factor.

    Below is an image of what the Main gunner would see once, the secondary gunner has painted the target...
    [IMG]

    Here are some counter / balance ideas...

    - The designator should project a beam at the target, thus giving away its position...
    - Instead of Flairs, Liberators would get a new option for Chafe, that would disrupt the laser designator...
  12. TheBlazing

    Liberators should simply be more vulnerable to ESFs... right now there is no real advantage to using A2A missiles or Coyotes agains Libs. Coyotes are anti-ESF weapons and that's fine, A2AMs require a constant lock which is impossible if the Lib decides to turn its belly towards you, which is where the whole problem lays, in my opinion.

    Some people think that Liberators are just "tier-2 fighter jets" but they aren't. They are A2G gunships and should have a reliable counter in the air. Of course, A2G ESFs should NOT be counters to Libs just because they carry a rotary coupled with their lolpods, and from here, the need to make A2A ESF secondaries more effective against Liberators.
  13. John_Aitc

    (Nice post, Macho) I rarely fly a Lib which means that I spend a lot of my time fighting against them.

    I think Libs are just fine the way they are. I hate myself for saying that, but they are strong vehicles that should be very difficult to get a solo kill on unless you also have a Lib or a Galaxy. I like the nerf to the Dalton because it adds a bit of skill to their ground farming.I do not think the Lib or Lib weapons should be changed at all from how they perform fight now.

    If Libs are disrupting the ground fight for me, I will try and use my rocket launcher or pull a Burster Max in the hopes that others will join me in trying to chase the air away. When I do not receive help, I will probably die, but that is what should happen.

    They seem OP because so many are flying right now. It was the same way after the Infil update. They were everywhere. Eventually the numbers will drop back to normal.
    • Up x 2
  14. GEWJANA

  15. WycliffSlim


    Other than the resistance change on Liberators I don't feel the Dalton got overnerfed. It's in a pretty good place right now that stresses its AV role and punishes you if you try to use it for anti-infantry. The shredder just has too high a DPS against all targets.

    Pilots DO need to worry about.
    Terrain: If you touch anything that isn't the air you have a 75% chance of spontaneously combusting.
    Tank Rounds(not as much anymore but that's not currently balanced correctly): Random Vanguards/Prowlers that sit angles on mountains hitting Libs from render range.
    ESF's: 1 competent ESF pilots is a serious threat to ANY Lib crew and 2-3 is basically a death sentence.
    A2G launchers.
    Flak that can shoot you when it's not even rendered
    Liberators have just as meany threats and take a similar amount of shots to bring down as MBT's do from the rear. From the front a MBT can take more damage from any source than a Liberator can.

    Nothing has a counter that destroys them without warning. With proper situational awareness you can see any OHK coming.

    C4: Look for the person running/flying around
    Tank Mines: Watch the ground in front of you
    Flash Cruise Missile: Look for the flash(I personally see these very rarely and almost laugh when I die to them)

    WHY should 1 HA bring down a Liberator? That's quite frankly stupid. The point of AA lockons is that with a little coordination between 2 or 3 people you can very rapidly scare away any aircraft or kill it if they don't leave.

    Libs can't hover high in the air and bomb and even IF they could that would create even more ******** because then people would complain that they're impossible to even hit.
    • Up x 1
  16. Forlorn Hope


    I agree with everything but dont nerf my Shredder! It already got nerfed in the post nanoweave patch. They buffed the TTK on Lightnings and Sundys by a full second. AA turrets got buffed to hell against the Shredder and TB and infantry went from a 3-4 bullet kill to 7-8. The need to fly in predictable ways to take advantage of the Shredder DPS is a disadvantage anyway.
  17. WycliffSlim

    Infantry is not a 7-8 bullet kill unless maybe you're hitting them with the very edge of splash damage. You only need to fly in a predictable way against infantry or if your gunner isn't great.

    At the end of the day the Shredder can perform as well or better at everything vs the other two bellyguns.

    AI: Better than Dalton. Better than Zepher at low speed passes not as good at high speed
    AV: Better than Zepher, on par with Dalton and sometimes better.
    AA: Better than Zepher, on par with Dalton and often better.
  18. Brahma2


    Honestly, people worry way more about Shredder than they should. Maybe if you meet one of the like... ten Shredder gunners in PS2 who actually matter you should die.
    • Up x 1
  19. WycliffSlim

    The same could be said for Dalton gunners.
  20. Brahma2


    ********. Look at the numbers on Stats DA.