Liberators are the new ESF

the esf is smaller and faster like the lightning, which I guess is where you're getting it form, but the esf is an air superiority fighter, now I don't know what kind of aa capabilities the devs want the lib to have, but I'm guessing not as much as an esf.

If tank balance were like air, the lighting would have ap round, and mbts would only have he rounds, with a little crappy halberd on the back.

Esf's are meant to be a hard counter, saying this I have absolutely no problem with the gal or lib contributing to air gameplay, in fact that's just more fun for everyone if it happens that way.

Well, I think I word myself wrong, because damn we think alike on the topic hehe

That's my idea,

ESF would be fragile like harasser but have the firepower of the lightning, hard counter to anything that flies. it's the piranha of the skies.
Libs would be more or less tanky like a lightning but have the firepower of an mbt. It's the giant albatross dropping on every thing on the ground.

Gals are the hp pinatas of the skies, much like our sundies on the ground.

Or I still don't get your point ? XD I can be slow sometimes when it's too evident XD

Yeah i solo it a lot. I didnt mean to say that the video is bad, it isnt. It shows that you are a far above average Lib pilot. But this video isnt a proof that Lib´s are OP. I am good enough to be able to shredd most ESF Pilots with the TB except aces, But i also spend over 200 hours in a Lib and know most Lib pilots worth knowing and crews that are "good" at fighting air are rare. There are a lot that can fight air and win against noob and advanced pilots. But quite often they are not good enough to fight good ESF pilots ( those who know how to fight Libs in hovermode). And there are a lot more good ESF pilots then good Lib pilots and there are always more ESF out there as Libs. So the ESF are still what dominates the air.

Belly gun change didnt really have a effect on performance against air. And sure, when gunned with A2A weapons the Lib is AA platform. It does have more then one role, like the ESF. I dont see a problem with that.

well you got my point, just lightning don't have that same relationship with mbts

I myself would either leave or go sythe only if the dalton got nerfed against ESFs. It would be sad if SOE only listens to the people that don't want to adapt or learn and not the people who actually learn how to use the weapon.

If libs are too effective at air to air, then have trained 100's of hours together and the crew would likely do just as well if they spent time in other vehicles like the MBT.

ESFs wouldn't be the hard counter to a lib if the ESF is not suited for that engagement. AB pods and you can dodge all the fire the entire fight if you learn how to do it (done it a few times myself). Continuously stay at render distance for the lib and shoot at it with the default, accurate nose cannon. A lolpodding suicide ESF flying straight at the lib deserves to die (many actually do this, even if I miss with the dalton, they still ram the lib).

Libs wouldn't ask for ESF escorts because a noob is usually friends with a noob and a skilled player is usually friends with skilled players. If you were a noob, the ESF would be no help and probably die anyways. If you were a skilled player, you'd know the pros and cons of the lib and how to use it effectively and maybe win. Although, a skilled ESF pilot will still never loose to even a 3/3 liberator that knows what they're doing.

Strangely this argument can be used both ways.

It would be sad if SOE listened only to people boasting to be "elites", with hours of training, for something that shouldn't really be happening in the game.

ESF should truly be the hard counters. otherwise, what are their purpose?? what's the meaning behind "Air Superiority Fighter" title? A grape-flavored bubblegum?

What's so horribly wrong for a ground-attack specialized aircraft to be somehow vulnerable to "something", you know, like it's normally natural predator the ESF?
Not Flak, it's useless at a certain range.
Lock-ons? C'mon, even less.

But hey, IF I was a skilled player, I think I'd rant about not getting my toys adjusted eh?
But I'm just a lowly casual enjoying a little bit of everything this game has to offer and finds that some elements of the game aren't exactly where they could be for the big picture PS2 can have.

If you die 1v1 vs a Lib in your ESF, you lack any real flying ability in PS2.

Entitled lib player alert.

It has EVERYTHING to do with crew size. Don't give me that crap about "they make up for it with synergy". Numbers is EVERYTHING in planetside, not matter what kind of mlgproubertactics you use, if you're outnumbered you lose. Period.
So yes, two people crewing a vehicle SHOULD beat a lone player. (Sunderers and galaxies are the exception since they're utility vehicles and obviously vehicle and weapon setup affects it as well).

This is why battle sunderers are weak (3-man vehicle that loses to 2/2 tanks with AV) and why nobody use the AA top turrets for sunderers/MBTs (you would be much better of pulling a skyguard or A2A esf) as well as the reason most libs run 2/3 (once again tail gunner would be much more useful pulling a independent ESF and acting as escort or a skyguard cover it from the ground).

I'm really not sure why SOE decided to create clearly inferor secondary guns, most of the time it just feels like a waste of manpower to even have someone gun them. The real solution to the lib problem might simply be to buff the walker and ranger up to a level where it's actually useful.

Well depends who you call "elites". As long are they are willing to not be biased, they will be actually very good for helping the game. They normally know all the game and what's good and what's not. I wouldn't trust someone who has 3 hours in aircraft but dies alot to them but claims they're OP.

ESFs shouldn't be the hard counter if they aren't suited for it. Otherwise, ESFs could beat everything with just rocketpods and a nosegun. An ESF suited for the engagement that knows what they're doing will win the fight 9/10 times.

Again cryforums.... You dont know how fight vs liberator its about PATIOANCE and keep distance like 400 meterrs !

With 1500+ hours in a Liberator PILOTS seat, I've seen every good and bad pilot on the server on all 3 factions.

We destroy all but the good pilots. The good pilots destroy us because they know how to fight a Liberator. Great ESF pilots kill us even faster.

If you can't kill a Lib solo in an ESF you're just bad.

In my opinion, you should be able to destroy an enemy liberator (with 1 person inside) with a single ESF (assuming no external interference). It should take at least a wingman to destroy a 2/3 lib (assuming that this is zephyr or a dalton gunner with bad aim). If the enemy liberator is 3/3, you should be able to destroy an average skill/aim liberator with 4 ESF. In it's current state, the shredder is by far the best Air-to-air weapon the Liberator has, and everybody can aim it. Your unskilled liberator pilot and an unskilled gunner could possibly take down 4 ESF of average skill, and if the liberator pilot is good, that could get up to 5. The liberator is in it's current state, too versatile. A lib is a strike fighter (tankbuster) or a bomber, not an air superiority fighter. (The lib should be like the A-10 not the F-35)

It seems a lot of ESF pilots are upset that they can not match a decent 3/3 lib in the air. That is rather arrogant. Its branded under the assumption that a 3/3 lib and a 1/1 ESF have the same combat prowess in the air. It is not. One takes 3 people working together, the other takes 1 guy.

Has it ever occured to the people complaining about the libs, that if they where to actually work together with another esf pilot or two, and form a wing, that they would have very little diffaculty taking out a 3/3 lib? I've noticed a complete lack of complaining from outfits that tend to run these wings. I wonder why that is. It was and still is a stupid idea that a super skilled ESF pilot should be able to rule the sky's at all times and never die. That is not an argument for skill, thats an argument for the ESF being over powered.

They are. 3 ESF's of moderate skill can easily wreck a 3/3 lib with a highly skilled crew if the ESF's work together the same way the lib crew is. The problem is that everyone is bringing up the point that 1 ESF has a hard time with a 3/3 lib. A hard counter does mean you can bring 1 of that unit and expect total dominace. Why is it that ESF's are the only unit in the game that people think should not have to work together with other units to be effective? Should a single ESF be able to kill a decent 4/4 Battle Gal as well?

I am pretty sure a rocket pod ESF is vulnerable against an AA fighter setup ESF. A zepher bulldog setup is very weak against any ESF. Oh wait are you saying that a lib should not be able to have any setup that is good against air?

Have we gotten to the point where flak and lock-ons no longer matter? It sounds like you want them buffed? Kinda funny though, where Flak does not ESF's at high altitudes, they still hit libs. You see libs are a lot bigger then an ESF. I know, i know, that can't be considered a downside despite an esf being able to hit it from 400m, or flak hitting it at the edge of render distance.

Casual is fine, and i believe that both elite and casual players should weight in on this arguement. The problem i keep having is this idiotic comparision of 1 ESF which contains a total of 1 guy and a full crewed Lib which contains 3 guys. Why is that? Why do we blatently ignore numbers when it comes to ESF's and no where else? No one says a lightning should take down a MBT, and no one says 1 heavy should take down 3 medics.The only thing i can think of is resources. So even 2 ESF's working together would be better. But this idea that every ESF pilot is an island and that team work is forbidden on ESF's is just plain wrong, and dumbs this game down to hover jet's, CoD FFA style.

TLDR: 1 lib with 3 people should be compared to at least 2 ESF's working together, if not 3.

Man, the 5/12 (Pilot, 4 gunners) Battle Gal should get a much larger advantage against a good 3/3 Liberator. It has more people. It should also take 4, if not 5 ESFs to kill. Not one guy with an excessive amount of time on his hands.

I suppose not, for they share the same role. If the Lightning was designated as a dedicated anti-armor unit, and the MBT designated as a dedicated anti-infantry unit. Then I would expect the Lightning to counter the MBT. Both of these examples use units that are occupying the same general role, anti-armor/anti-infantry.

Likewise, an ESF that forgoes any A2G ability should counter an aircraft that focuses on A2G. Liberators smash Galaxies because the Galaxy does not fulfill the role of a dedicated combat gunship, they rely on friendly units to do the majority of combat for them. They're a troop transport and squad spawn point, with some fairly minor combat ability. If Liberators are meant to be A2G units, then they should be countered by A2A units.

The same argument can be made with you. Why shouldn't Liberators be made to work with the rest of the air units in order accomplish their role? Would the US deploy an AC-130 or Apache Gunship into contested airspace without first ensuring they had air superiority? I've argued for a long time that A2A and A2G should be kept separate, and no unit should be able to be both highly competent in both fields at the same time. Short of a combo like Banshee and Coyotes, for the most part ESFs are no longer capable of that. Why should Liberators be any different?

I dint think it is as one-sided as you make it out to be l, Dread. Should ESF pilots win more often not? Definitely. But fighting a good lib crew is pretty much dancing with death. One mistake and you are done.

Sure and your automatic one shot win vs anyone apart from the best where it turns into a duel is completely fair aint it?
Rofl sure get over your self drama queen.

Exactly why I don't fly my ESF anymore. I currently give my gunners a solid average of about 60+ kills before we're taken down or I make a mistake and kill us all. And on good nights we can go well above 100 kills if there is a lacking of enemy air wings to gang up on us with. Unless there is a pack of top tier pilots or simply over whelming numbers of ESF Libs can farm to their hearts content. The days when a solo ESF was a serious threat to a Lib is long gone with the nerf to AB.