It should not take 10+ people to kill 1 frecking lib

But it's completely ok for a 450 resource tank with the same cert investment to be easily countered by 1 aircraft, right?

How about the 300 resource Lightnight w/ Skyguard? That is a completely specialized platform that is only "good" at shooting aircraft. I suppose it should still take several of those to counter one aircraft, because... some pilot excuse.

If it is out on its lonesome and isn't running with a gunner/engi then yes. That some tank nested with friendlies isn't going to get 'easily countered' unless he is sleeping and lets that plane fly up behind him and unload all of its rockets into its soft spot... same as that tank can one-shot an ESF if he is hovering about and doesn't notice that tank.

https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428010917264381201/killboard

You seem to be vaporizing aircraft just fine. Seems you are getting better killing streaks in your skyguard than in your death-dealing aircraft as well.

Apples and oranges

I suggest that SOE just queries the database for air-to-ground kills on vehicles and compares it with sky guard air kills... and buffs the Skyguard accordingly. Everything else seems about balanced.

I thought we were over this killboard thing actually meaning anything?

https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428109895940786593/killboard

https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428082003155259297/killboard

Those are the two gunners that killed your Skyguard friend with aircraft while he was a Skyguard. In case it changes before you can see it the first guy has a streak of 56 while using the Shredder over what looks to be aprox 43 minutes or something, its late and I cant be arsed to do math. The second guy has a 41 kill streak with the Zepher in something around 30 minutes.

Looking at your own killboard its only kills done with aircraft and not a single death is from a Skyguard or ground lock on. Only other aircraft has killed you.


Still think the killboard is a good place to get information from?

Ah figures, noticed I forgot the important part and the 30 minutes has passed so cant edit anymore but here, more text

Your Skyguard friend has two "streaks" with the Skyguard, the first is a whole 4 or 5 kills over a 6 minute period, thats really good, the first 3 is probably a Liberator since they died at the same time and the other two might have been ESFs, one of them didnt get a single kill that session so impossible to tell, the other killed one with pods just before dying but none of them are exactly experienced with ESFs, the one that got a kill has a total of 130 kills with his ESF and the guy that didnt kill anything so might not even have been in an ESF has a total of 2(!) kills with his ESF.

If that wasnt enough, BEFORE he got his streak your friend died, then about 20 minutes after that he finally killed something with the Skyguard. It looks like he pulled a Skyguard and went driving for 20 minutes before he managed to kill a Liberator with 3 people inside, one or two very new ESFs.

Now that kill streak doesnt look that impressive anymore since its more like 1 Liberator and possibly 2 ESFs in about 25 minutes.


The 2nd kill streak is 7 kills over about 55 minutes or so.

First guy I cant get to the killboard on.
2nd has almost no time or kills on any of his aircraft and at the time of death mainly fought as infantry.
3rd at least has some experience flying but the death in question is not on the killboard so cant say if he was flying or not but none of his last kills are from flying so killboard and what stats we have show he doesnt fly often.
4th his first death on that session so impossible to say if he was flying or not.
5th Kill not on the killboard anymore, possible he was flying.
6th as #2, almost no time or kills on any aircraft, very unlikely he was flying.
7th Almost 18,5k kills with his Mossie, perhaps he was flying but no kills before dying so hard to tell and I would expect someone with that many kills to at least get one before dying but w/e.

So first streak of his wasnt all that good and his 2nd streak looks for the most part to be made of infantry kills, 7 kills in almost an hour... I agree, what a monster the Skyguard is when even your friend thats not good with FPS games can get such streaks with it!

It don't know where you're getting your facts from but I could easily kill a single skyguard solo in a lib.

The 3 main problems with the Liberator:
- Way too easy to target and hit ground targets with downward firing cannon
- It is not vulnerable against ESF enough, Lib should need air superiority to operate
- It is too fast

The other problem is that AA is unrewarding, if people pull AA duty the fun and the xp stops. Dedicated AA should receive XP just for being on duty (does not solve the problem of no to little fun doing AA)

And I was being half serious with my response. Yet, no matter how many lockons you'll fire at an aircraft -- it pops flares and all of them go skyward.

So because you find it boring and unrewarding to save your team from slaughter, aircraft need fundamental changes?
If anything AA would need better rewards. Then again, if you only play for certs and cba to do anything that isn´t giving you free cert´s, well, that´s hardly a balance issue and more an issue of people not understanding that this is a multiplayer game, and not a solofarmfest?
You´re basically saying "It´s boring so I don´t want to do it", then go on to complain about how you get slaughtered by air. Well, how bout taking a bite of that sour apple for a few minutes to clear the skies and then go back to whatever you did before?
It´s really amazing what kind of arguments are used to get stuff nerfed, there are tools here to take care of air but because they don´t instantly kill air or give you several k´s of exp for every hit you land you don´t want to do it. Great!

I guess engi´s standing behind MAX units repairing them is also OP and needs a nerf, because you cba to do it yourself, since you wouldn´t get much cert´s from repairing. But you don´t want to get slaughtered by a team like that, so it needs removal.

Questions: Is this your personal anecdote? Were you idle as they flew over you? Did you attempt evasive maneuvers as you blind the pilot or dalton gunner with flak, depending if the tank burster was aiming at you, or the dalton pointing at you?

well i got some 300 hours flying libs......and i have to agree they are pretty broken right now.

with a dalton + bulldog setup i taken down 3-4 AA maxes and their engis and medics.
The damage output on the bulldog just butchers everything on ground but maxes just not a very valid AA defence anymore.

AA towers and skygaurds seem to be about as dangerous as they used to be.

a good ESF pilot will still always win if you ask me

The real problem SOE was trying to fix was tank shells and sutch being a valid weapon against planes and that was just broken for any "gunship" to be fair they need to up the speed or maneuverability of the air game to fix that issue not the damage. since this would keep pretty neutral in other parts of the game.

As much as a really really love the bulldog now......it probably need to be nerfed a bit.
And i guess buster damage should be upped a bit to equal things out a bit.

Since changes probably here to stay.

I just wanna say one lonely skygaurd is just a target, you take thouse out and remain with something like 35% health. and you go and repair. But yes as you mentioned it dosent take much more to tip the scales.

Imo this would be fine but since we have ESFs it just isnt anymore. Both are 1 man vehicles, 1 is designed to fight aircraft and cant really do much else and the other is a fighter, yet the fighter is by far the best AA in the game at the same time its highly effective at killing infantry or vehicles.

Its that difference that I find so strange, pilots have no problem having those short TTKs on fellow ESFs but as soon as you even hint at wanting a slightly higher DPS on the Skyguard they come flying into the thread and complain how they already die in droves to Skyguards. I just dont see why a vehicle that cant chase after them must have a crappy TTK while ESFs are allowed to have both a much shorter TTK and the ability to chase down their targets.

My problem is mainly with ESFs, too long TTK for how fast and evasive the target is. Shortest possible for a lone Skyguard is 4 seconds with 100% accuracy but 4 seconds is enough for ESFs to move long distances even if you could maintain a 100% accuracy on it, its too easy to get away with ESFs.

The main grievance I have with air is how easily they can retreat, repair, and return. I'm fine with how deadly they can be. What I would like to see is all air assets can only be repaired at your own warpgate. NARS would have to be tweaked as well so that it repairs itself significantly slower.
With a steady stream of damaged air assets returning to warpgate I think it would open up an entirely new avenue for air to air combat. If you slipped behind enemy lines you could pick off damaged aircraft returning to warpgate to repair.

SOE is about to release new weapons for the Lib, are We really that surprised when they restore the OP status on the Lib just to sell new stuff?

Its more because a Tank lacking an AV secondary is meat to other tanks. We have to always roll HEAT/AV secondary or AP/AV secondary if we want to beat each other in Tank duels. Rolling AA is not an option unless you plan to constantly sit away from the fight and never actually engage enemy Tanks head on.

This is the right answer. It's not that the weapons on the Lib are over powered, it's that the Lib is too good against ESFs.

There needs to be a real Rock, Paper, Scissors dynamic here that is currently broken:

Lib > MBT
ESF > Lib
Skyguard > ESF
MBT > Skyguard

Right now, MBTs dominate Skyguards as they should. And Liberators dominate MBTs as they should. But Liberators can "stand-off" ESFs quite easily because of their maneuverability. And ESFs can avoid Skyguards relatively easily and only fall prey because of their own hubris.

ESFs should dominate a Liberator as fast a MBT dominates a Skyguard. And Skyguards should dominate ESFs as fast as a Liberator dominates a MBT.

Liberators need a reduction in speed overall and they need to lose lift much faster when tilted at more that a 45 degree angle. High-G airframe should be removed outright. This will make Libs far more vulnerable to ESFs.

Skyguards need a slight reduction in their CoF and about a 25% increase in bullet speed. This will help Skyguards engage targets at a greater range and land more flak on-target which should put them right where they need to be in attacking ESFs.

As a fairly inexperienced lib pilot who is still learning the ropes, and as someone that has previously been annoyed by libs from time to time (before and after the patch) here's my take on things;

Even if you fail to kill the lib, forcing it to retreat time and time again severely limits how much damage it can do. Libs are not easy to farm with unless you are hanging above the perfect fight. I get more exp/hour sniping. Often you can snatch a few kills, but are forced to retreat and rethink your strategy. Ground forces are not usually fatal unless you make a miscalculation, but they can certainly ruin your fun even if they don't kill you.
A lone ESF isn't a huge threat unless they are really talented, but if you are retreating from a flak pummeling and one engages you, you're toast. Other libs with certed out tankbusters will kill you in seconds. If you fail to notice an enemy lib in the area, you'll be nailed by the Dalton faster than you can say WTF. An of course, two or more ESF's will bring you down. You have to pay a LOT of attention to the airspace to fly a lib effectively.

Of course, as I get more skilled with the lib I'll be able to do somewhat more damage with one, and even more so when I finished certing it. But I doubt I'll ever be able to achieve overpowered status. I can be effective, sure. I consider myself an above average pilot but by no means a pro. I like all aspects of this game too much to only focus on one style.

My main frustration facing enemy libs is losing my tanks to them. Nothing worse than having a good old fashioned tank war and having a lib or two turn up the the party. Usually my team is focusing on the ground battle and are under-prepared for sudden appearance of aircraft, so there is little flak to send them packing, at least initially. It's fine, I suppose, for unsupported tanks to die to gunships. But it is frustrating. I feel like the nerf to tank shells against libs feeds the feeling of helplessness you get.

Getting nailed by a dalton as soon as you walk out the spawn room door is annoying, but it's really not that big a deal. Between however many of you are cowering in the spawn room, you can probably cause the lib enough hurt to at least get it to go away. If there's tanks and infantry stopping you doing this, then the base is already lose. Redeploy, and get ready for the next battle.

Libs are fun, and full time Lib pros are very tough to beat. But if someone is causing that much carnage, people make it a point to shut them down.

true, but that lib better get out of there before they reload