[Guide] Raw Data Prowler VS. Vanguard V 0.1

Another thing I'd like to point out is this:

The shield is 3,000 HP, not 4,000.

Additionally keep in mind that since you can't fire 77% of a shot, you need to truncate to determine exactly how much damage has been inflicted at the 10 second mark (which would put the Vanguard HEAT at 3200, or 4800 if you give him the first shot free).

However if you're only comparing HEAT guns 1/2, neither tank does enough damage to kill the other in 10 seconds due to armor, unless you're looking at the rear.

A stock Prowler has an EHP of 10,810.81 from the front, so the only main gun that can kill a Prowler/Magrider from the front in under 10 seconds is an AP Prowler, and a Vanguard HEAT should only have it down to about 60% at this time. Extrapolating, this means if they're really going to commit to a duel it should take the VG about 30 seconds to kill the Prowler.

A stock Vanguard has an EHP of 12500 from the front, with 9375 EHP of shield. The shield will absorb the first 8 seconds of Prowler HEAT since its DPS is not high enough to go through it (unless it anchors, in which case the Prowler will tear through the shield and damage the Vanguard too) and then the Vanguard will eat one volley. Over the next ten or so seconds the Prowler would proceed to destroy the Vanguard and leave the battle with 30%-ish HP left.

Long slug-outs with HEAT really aren't a good example if you're trying to make the Vanguard look strong or the Prowler look weak, because that situation actually minimizes the advantage of the shield (it only covers 8 of the 30-ish seconds the HEAT Vanguard needs to kill the Prowler) and maximizes the advantage of the Prowler's rate of fire.

This is why most people who whine about the shield try to use a point-blank slugmatch with 2/2 AV. In this case the TTK in both directions tends to fall around 8.5 seconds (a sufficiently certed Enforcer or Halberd adds just as much damage to the VG as the AP gun, if not more), which the shield can cover a large chunk of. It won't give you the full 8 in this situation because a 2/2 AV can easily drop the shield, but the 6-ish seconds it takes them to do so is still significant in an 8.5 second TTK window.

Though of course this can be negated several ways, such as attacking the side or rear to reduce the shield's EHP (the shield can be dropped in 2-3 seconds from the rear), or taking cover and repairing while the shield is up so you can re-engage with extra HP while the shield is down. Alternately, if you're distant enough that you don't have to worry about the VG getting behind you, Anchor's DPS boost is enough to negate the shield and still kill the Vanguard first.

Still, this is part of what makes the Vanguard a dedicated AV tank: the shield provides a significant advantage to a 2/2 AV loadout, but significantly less to HEAT or AP/AI loadouts.

As far as the Magrider, well, it doesn't fare well in point-blank slugmatch simulations like this because it's not designed for point-blank slugmatches. If an opponent is trading front hits at 100% accuracy and full RoF against a Magrider, either he's a really good shot or the Magrider's driver has made a mistake.

Thats because a prowler is OP against infantry while the Vanguard is the middle child against armor and last against infantry.

Source please.

All I know is that I'd trade my Prowler's crappy double-turret for a single barreled version in a split second. I'd also trade our Lockdown ability for a Vanguard's shield or even a Magrider's boost just as fast.

This has been common knowledge since January. Of last year.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/vanguard-shield-demystified.83886/

Source outside of the forums preferred please. I have heard from NUC is was 4,000. So I am going to stick with 4,000 until a site or a decently set up post is done on it.

EDIT
Especially looking at the posts in it the data is still "guessing" with people second guessing.

What's kind of funny is people are discussing buffing the shield in that thread. The shield hasn't been changed since (outside of fixing the bug where it drops from a single bullet), but now people are calling for it to be nerfed.

Vanguard Shield is 3,000 health, affected by armor resists.

Those resists are as follows:

Front Armor: 68% damage reduction
Front Armor Reinforced: 72% damage reduction
Side/Top Armor: 65% damage reduction
Side/Top Armor Reinforced: 75% damage reduction
Rear/Bottom Armor: 35% damage reduction

This effectively means that a Vanguard with its Shield up has 7,000 base health for 8 seconds, modified by resists.

Since any real calculations regarding tank-v-tank balance should be done with AP, and only with AP, you also have to factor in the fact that AP rounds get a 20% damage bonus versus MBT and Lightning armor.

Versus AP rounds, the resists are modified like so:

Front Armor: 48% damage reduction
Front Armor Reinforced: 52% damage reduction
Side/Top Armor: 45% damage reduction
Side/Top Armor Reinforced: 55% damage reduction
Rear/Bottom Armor: 15% damage reduction

To test, we do the following calculation. I know for a fact that a Saron volley and an AP round to the rear from a Magrider will drop the Shield. The Saron is not an AP weapon, and therefore does not benefit from the lower resist values in the second list.

Saron = 425 damage per shot * 6 shots per volley = 2550 damage.
FPC = 1865 damage per shot.
FPC gets reduced 15% for rear damage, since it's AP. It ends up dealing 1585.25 damage.
HRB gets reduced 35% for rear damage, since it's not AP. It deals 1657.5 damage.
Add them up, you get 3242.75, which means that the last Saron shot drops the Shield without denting the hull.
The Shield has 3,000 health.

Well if I could get a accurate hp of the shield, I would make my call. At this time I would say its okay at 4k.

You have it, read my post.

That is intresting deggy. However I have scene on several occasions a Vanguard with its shields went up and several mags fired FPCs, along with their Halberds all of them rear strike the Shield Vanguard, yet the shields stayed up. We even got a second salvo off while he shields were up, so I think the damage reduction to the shield is higher then your estimating.

I was doing the calcs based on the shield having Zero resistance. I will do one with front and side armor based.

I need to stop typing....

Welcome to the NC faction trait....hard hitting and heavily armored. At the same time slower reload and less speed and maneuverability.
If your trying to go head to head with a Vanguard in a Prowler and doing so just sitting in one place not moving you deserve to be blown to bits.
That is like a Sherman tank doing the same to a German Tiger... unless it used its speed and maneuverability to flank and attack from the side/rear or used cover during the engagement the Sherman would get eaten alive unless it used its abilities to its advantage.

The resist and armour tables you have used are based on a Googledoc that has not been updated since July 24th of last year. Since then we have seen several rebalancing passes to the resistances and armour of vehicles (The Doc).

On the point of the damage contra resistance. This is called asymmetrical balance. In this case the Prowler is fast, manoeuvrable and can deal more damage than the Vanguard. The Vanguard however is equipped to be able to take damage and roll away from it. In the area of the cannons there are also special things to consider. The dual cannons of the Prowler allows it to miss with one shot and still deliver damage to the target. On the other hand it does deliver the damage slower leaving itself vulnerable to counter-attack longer (it does however have a fast reload so it does not actually loose damage on this). The Vanguard however fires once but does so hard. This means it suffers greatly from a miss. As last consideration it is worth mentioning that the Vanguard is slow and hard to manoeuvre.

So this suggest some strategies to employ against a Vanguard:
- Don't get in too close. If you get so close that the main gun of the Vanguard can land each shot with little trouble he will win due to his ability to "tank" the damage you inflict.
- Don't stand still. Your advantage is speed. Use it. Lock down is not an option against a Vanguard (unless you have a friend). Your cannons (and the Vulcan for that matter) work well while on the move (or at least better than the Vanguards). Even if you need to stop to fire (to be sure to hit) make sure you do so after he fires. If he holds his fire, all the better as you will be able to fire as you please even if you miss a lot due to movement.
- Make sure you have cover to retreat to. You will need this to wait out the shield or to get some repairing in. As you will likely be at range he should not be able to hunt you down.
- Provoke a shield use and then retreat: The shield is very powerful but works for a limited time. After it is gone you have the advantage. At this point direct confrontation is possible and so is Lockdown (you may want to lay off this to be sure he cannot flee).

It is interesting to see how the two tanks act differently and how they demand different things from their drivers. The Prowler demands more awareness of your surroundings whereas the Vanguard requires more in the area of measuring distances and speeds of targets.

So if the DPS of your prowler is lower, it's actually your fault ! Don't blame the prowler

You never flank or get behind them ? You do it wrong. And FYI It's useless to aim at the sides: the damage modification is dependant on which direction you shoot from, not on where you hit the tank.

The prowler has the worst AV turret as well, which beside ability, is a huge factor.
It may have the highest DPS potential of all the tanks, but with the worst AV turret (Vulcan is a joke after it's nerf) Lock down to maximize dps, and easiest back to shoot cause it's a small box, it's the worst tank v tank.

The Vulcan has nothing on the CL85 Enforcer or HRB Saaron, if a Prowler loses to a Vanguard it's either the shield of the CL85 that's won that fight, even if the Prowler strikes first, all the Vanguard needs is 2 shots from it's main cannon, and 2-4 shots from the CL85

The Vulcan as it is now, is basically the canister of AV weapons. For better AV potential at range, use the Halberd. Most Vanguards run with Halberd as well because of the high alpha potential while still having the ability to kill infantry.
As far as I'm concerned, both the Canister and the Vulcan should be ignored as armour secondaries. They are practically useless in a game where everybody and their dog carries C4 around that can instantly destroy your vehicle.

Two things:



1. One of the major issues with the Aegis shield is its directional shielding, this means that the clientside hit detection and latency issue not only screws the shield in using it reactively (see below), but also when it is up and people simply straffe around it (there's a video of that somewhere too if I can find it).

A completely enclosing shield doesn't do much about the reactive clientside hit detection issue, but it DOES completely negate the latter flaw with clientside hit detection.







2. The Vanguard is the worst chassis, as can be seen when the shield was bugged the Vanguard performed horribly compared to the other two tanks, currently the Van shield largely props up that chassis.

To nerf the Van shield would require buffing the Vanguard chassis, probably to make it a clone of the Prowler in speed and mobility (with the Prowler having more base DPS and the Van having more base defence).