It should not take 10+ people to kill 1 frecking lib

Yeah, it's always been awkward that the second Burster and Skyguard cost certs. At least ESFs don't cost certs to have, and are still the best counter to enemy Liberators.

It would probably be fine for the Skyguard to be 1000 certs if there was a low-skill low-reward G2A weapon for the Lightning that was unlocked by default. So you'd have a newbie-friendly weapon by default, and could choose to unlock the somewhat more difficult to use Skyguard. The newbie-friendly weapon would involve some form of lock-on, probably a Coyote-like weapon (the other obvious alternative would be a Grounder-like weapon where it's a lockon launcher with ~4 shots per magazine but can be flared.)

Although thinking about newbie-friendly Lightning AA weapon designs makes me want a sort of Tunguska style gun (which wouldn't be a newbie-friendly AA weapon and would require a bit more aiming skill like the Skyguard.) The devs have mentioned being unable to have weapons with fire faster than a certain rate of fire, but other games solve that by playing a fast-firing sound effect while having bullet tracers be ~3 bullets each (instead of 1 bullet). The mild breakage of realism (since those 3 visual bullets are functionally 1 bullet that can only hit one target) seems worth the look/feel of having extreme-rate-of-fire weapons in the game.

There is no airplane or heli in the world with a powerful downfiring cannon or any downfiring weapon for that matter.

AC can stay alive on the modern battlefield due to speed, but that also limits its usability: little time over target area, limited visibility at high speed. A Lib like airplane would die in minutes in real life.

I do not want PS2 to be a real life simulator, but some lessons could be learned.
- Remove downfiring weapons from lib, replace it with another forward firing weapon
- Gunner should handle one or both forward firing weapon or could be copilot with optics for spotting
- Remove hover

Thats it, now it works, the Lib will be like an A-10 attack airplane and not a heli. No more easy hovering and farming, but now the plane is more useful against enemy concentrations.

There are counters to Libs, but:
- most people prefer infantry fighting to flying
- many counters require mass cert spending
- AA duty = no fun, low XP gameplay. FPS games are more popular than anti-aircraft gunner simulators

At least ESFs should be more powerful against Lib, so Lib would need air superiority and escorts to operate. This still does not solve the problem of low pop areas being farmed by Libs, which is the main issue. Making Lib a proper attack AC would fix the problem.

Its actually the pilots that are playing a combined arms game but dont want to be playing a combined arms game.

If I jump into a Skyguard, how does that NOT make me a combined arms game player playing a combined arms game?
I just took the role of AA to cover the infantry and other vehiles in the area and I depend on them to protect me from other ground forces. Thats pretty much the defenition of combined arms game.

The pilots on the other hand only talk about combined arms when its used in talking about things that should be needed to counter them and never ever when its about taking out targets that in all ways should counter them, like a Skyguard.

In a combined arms game air would dominate the ground but the moment some heavy AA unit arrives(Skyguard) that would be the end of that, either they run or die a horrible death. From that point the pilots would need either overwhelming force to remove it or combined arms with the ground, Lightning/Harasser pushing in behind enemy lines and taking it out or a small unit of infantry to sneak in and take out such "high value" targets.

But.. pilots dont want to play a combined arms game do they?

1 full clip of Tank Buster which takes about 1 sec to unload instantly kills a Lib, and that is one person. So 1 guy can kill a lib in one second. I dont know what you're talking about.

I and many other pilots pushed for the skyguard buff that it received some half a year ago. I am not saying YOU aren't interested in combined arms - I am saying what seems to be a vocal majority is. Ground has an enormous amount of AA available to it, so few care enough to use it and just keep asking for more and more easy mode weapons when really the problem is the players who look upward are a minority. If you hop in a skyguard and no one else does - how many air vehicles do you feel entitled to personally hold off if no one else is shooting skyward?

The liberator buff everyone is screaming about came because the power and quantity of AA in the game already makes it impossible for liberators to even get within render range of defense turrets without getting creamed by AA in large fights. There is EXTREMELY effective AA in the game at the moment... just not enough infantry players bothering to use it.

The current problem is that in small fights air devastates ground. This is not because ground lacks tools, but because combined arms games don't scale all that well. Rather than trying to rebalance SOE just needs to provide better base design where infantry exposure to air is reduced. Base design will scale better than weapon design.

You guys dont get it, this is the new FOTM weapon. It is setting the stage for the next FOTM weapon, and when it comes out, the Lib will be nerfed into the ground and then everyone will whine how OP the next FOTM weapon is. Its an endless cycle that keeps people buying stuff out of the store. Great for SOE, bad for the community.

Kind of wonder how that could happen, considering the ceiling for the game is a fraction of the height they would be attacking from.
Ultimately if you wanna speak realism, attack/ground support aircraft > tanks every single time. That said the same should be true ingame, but the counters that exist for them realistically and ingame are either expensive or largely unused.

It only takes 1-2 coordinated players to harass a liberator or outright kill it. A skyguard or a dual burster max can persuade a lib to move to a new AO with relative ease. 2 or 3 heavies with AA lock-on can easily put some hurt on a lib. 10 fools running around without any coordination or communication whatsoever = dalton fodder.

I love my lib runs and believe me, those bursters, skyguards, and lock-ons hurt bigtime. Conversely, I like to participate in AA nests and flyswatting and ambush libs as well. Again, this 10+ thing you rant about is just hyperbole. Lib is plenty vulnerable IMHO. So what do you do when you have an enemy lib covering your base? You use your prox chat and coordinate a strike on it with your teammates. Easy stuff, man. =)

Current balance by large strokes is: AA < Infantry < Tanks < Air < Air

Exceptions to this is either large number of the lower tiers, suprise or superior advantage like cover and that AA needs less numbers than Infantry and Tanks to be good against Air.

Infantry can kill tanks but you need numbers, suprise or a good position.
Tanks can kill air but you need numbers, suprise or a good position.
Air kills air and everything else, everything else can also kill air but it needs numbers, suprise or a good position.

Then we add AA and not much changes, you still need numbers, suprise or a good position to kill air. Balance is broken and its by design.

How it should be(with above guidelines): AA < Infantry < Tanks < Air < AA

You're right, it shouldn't take 10 people to take out a lib. It should take 3 good players to take out a lib filled with 3 good players.

Right now, I think that it's actually kind of there. 3 good ESF pilots will crush a lib filled with 3 good players, and unless it's next to the Warpgate it's not going to escape. 3 good shooters in Skyguards, or in 3 Burster MAXes, can kill a good 3/3 Lib if they wait until it's close before revealing themselves.

Lock ons, well, yeah, nobody's going to kill a Lib with lock ons. I'll grant you that one.

Yes. It had flares.

You should balance everything on 2 as the lib crew not 3, because the tail gunner rarely does anything useful and a dedicated one is usually neglected.
With that in mind, one lib with 2 good people can wipe the floor with 2 good skyguards. That is simply because the lib fires nukes and has this at the front.
Also, a lib is worth 350 air resources. Two skyguards are worth 600 ground resources.

What are you talking about? When I am on, which isn't often anymore because life has started it's dictatorship, I pretty much only roll as Burster-MAX or Skyguard. Why? Because as someone that plays pretty much only AA, I don't expect to get kills with my AA. I play AA as a deterrent, to keep the skies as clear as I can for my team mates on the ground.

Where that goes bad is that you still need those numbers to deal with a 2/3 or even 1/3 Liberator.

If 7 of these people would shoot the ground this statement would be true....I spent 95% of my gametime as infantry.Sure there are way more libs there after the patch but quantity is not quality.I agree to an extent that they should give us the hard counter back,aka flak.But the majority of the libs up there are scrubs.Against experienced crews you just simply have to play it out smart.

Whops, dare I say it...if you need at least 10 people to destroy a liberator you're unbelievably bad.

I like how a good portion of the players here assume that everyone's capable of being a good ESF pilot. Not everyone's cut out to be a pilot and they shouldn't have to double your numbers to make up for that lack of trait.

Depends. In the hands of good and experienced players that is approximately true. In the hands of casuals the reverse of that is true.

So which do you balance for? A handful of top players, or the vast majority of average/casual players? Other than littering the game with zero-skill weapons there is little that can be done to make this equation work out. Air is already nearly inaccessible to casual players as it is. The best way to manage the 'pro' problem with vehicles is to incorporate more ways to slow down the carnage, which they have. Rocketpods and noseguns have been nerfed to death vs infantry. Libs will likely be in line for that treatment next. Ammo pools have been reduced over time forcing rearming more often. Composite armor encourages lib crews to run something other than auto-repair, meaning pro Lib crews using it still have to leave the arena often to land and repair.

This is about as good as you are going to get without destroying the game. Adding EZ mode weapons has already driven away a LOT of good players.


You underestimate the strength of AA too I think. People keep referencing the weakness of AA as if a lone player running a gun should be able to vaporize aircraft. It doesn't work that way - no more than a lone dude with an AV turret can destroy vehicles. AA is designed to stack, and if players don't throw a few AA options skyward that one lone defender of course is going to get creamed. What that lone AA CAN do though is take the heat off of troops near him, and he can tip the air fight overhead in the favor of friendly air. Now if two skyguards join him - you effectively have a no fly zone over your area of operation.

No one assumes that. What is assumed is that each faction has approximately the same mix of players. Your faction has pilots as well. You can help your friendly pilots by aiming some hate upward. If I am in a dogfight and I get locked up or start taking flak - my odds of getting out alive diminish rapidly. Ground fire at range of course isn't going to massacre air wholesale, nor should it. It will however tip the balance of any air war going on in your factions favor - or at the very least force aircraft to deal with your AA and take the heat off other ground units while doing so.

If the enemy brings 3 liberators and 3 esfs - and only 4 defenders bother trying to throw up some AA, then yes your team is going to get creamed. Now if your team throws up 2 skyguards, and AA Max or two and a couple repair engies - you will easily chase off those 9+ people attacking you from the air. AA stacks much better than air stacks.

Or if you have 1 really strategically placed skyguard. but I agree, AA is ment as a deterrent. There should be no reason for someone to assume that they can merc any aircraft as a lone AA