Let's discuss MBT ESAI weapons

Giving Prowler an even better AI weapon will just break the game. Thx to the Prowlers insane RoF it´s already the best AI tank, and that´s with 2/2 PPA/HE Magriders on the board. Do we need even deadlier AI Prowlers? If you say yes you either havn´t played at release where 1x HE Shell vaporized groups of infantry, or you simply don´t care about balance aslong as you get some new toy.

The VG is the last tank that needs any love at this point. Yes it´s not good against infantry atm, but did anyone consider what would happen if the VG -- aside from totally annihilating anything with tracks, wheels, or engines -- is also capable of easily taking out infantry? I can already see the 150mm AP + AI Secondary VG´s running wild. 150mm AP + Iwinshield to easily defeat any other VHC even dedicated AV units, and the secondary to take out the only remaining threat (lots of infantry with explosives).

Meanwhile the only reason you see so many PPA Mags(the PPA is good, but it´s also the only setup where you don´t feel UP as a Magrider): Our AP setup sucks balls compared to the rest, if you want to do AV action as VS take an AP lightning.

Yeah. I dont understand how the canister has remained crap for such a long time. Do you any ideas on how to make it viable without making it OP? NC definitely deserve a decent ESAI weapon.

Well, if more Vanguards starting running AI secondaries that can't damage vehicles, it'd reduce the number of Enforcers you'd see, which in turn would mean they'd likely stop slaughtering all of the vehicles.

8sec of immunity + 150mm AP is enough to either completely or almost kill any other MBT or VHC. Worst case scenario your shield runs out, you take 1-2 hits then finish of your enemy and still have plenty of HP. And all that is under the assumption that a revamped NC AI is incapable of damaging any VHC´s aside from ESF´s and Flash´s, like the PPA. If the NC AI secondary would somehow deal dmg to all VHC´s, even if only a small amount, it would make it even easier to be the gold standard for all-round domination on the battlefield.

I didn't say it'd lose, just that it wouldn't be as much of a massacre. I gun the Enforcer for one of my outfit who has his Vanguard fully certed out, and it's quite deadly when you dump 10 enforcer rounds and a AP Titan round on a target.

Oddly enough, I think we pop our shield more often against air than vehicles.

The prowler meta is to run solo with HE and have the marauder on the roof which you use while the main gun is reloading to maximize your infantry farming potential.

The issue isn't the weapons. The issue is the same one that the harasser faced (only in reverse). Its the platform they are mounted on. Marauder (and Vulcan for that matter) are not OP or UP, but when combined with certain platforms it what makes them OP or UP. The most recent example of that was the Vulcan. It under performed on the Prowler by a noticeable margin, while it was over performing on the Harasser at the same time by a large margin.

I've reread what I said, a few times actually. I still didn't say that one faction having a decent AI weapon, whilst the other 2 have "basically broken AI weapons" is asymmetric balance. What I essentially said was, what the game gives with one hand, it takes away with the other some place else. Not all factions have the same give, or the same take, on the same things. That is asymmetric balance - or should be.

Anyway, as others have said, this quarrel is potentially derailing the thread. I'm happy to take this to a different thread or via PM if you wish. I'm not sure it needs it though.

Agree 100%.

Actually let's not, thinking about the C85 makes me sad

you are correct on the last paragraph, i verified this in VR just now.
in VR i also noticed the larger mag upgrade adds 20 extra rounds for a total of 70, and i do maintain my opinion that this is abnormally large.

also, you may be onto something with the rest of your post. i used the numbers for PU02 in the spreadsheet i linked in my previous post, and the numbers for MBT primaries. for convenience, i will link both spreadsheets:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...aC0tZTFrdmVFMjF0Rkhrb0VIRFE&usp=sharing#gid=7
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...LWg3MkN5YWlncmJYSVlJbzh5ZXc&usp=sharing#gid=3

adding together total kills for all MBT weapons (all primaries and all secondaries), post PU02, by faction i get these numbers:

NC: 433,762
TR: 446,673
VS: 499,406

that is far less of a discrepancy than the ES-AI numbers would suggest. there is still a slight bias visible in these numbers, but i would require total kills by faction (all sources) to determine if this is simply due to different factions favoring different tactics.

i added together all total harasser kills too, post PU02, from this spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...blJ1cUEtdEVNNUk0OVhVekRqZlE&usp=sharing#gid=7

NC: 22,928
TR: 38,998
VS: 54,116

the discrepancy here is obvious however.

Yea, longer ranged AI weapons on the harasser probably didn't take as big of a hit. Harassers took a huge survivability hit, but PPA harassers were already used to fighting at medium range rather than up close and personal. So the nerf to up close survivability probably didn't hit them as hard. It's all hypothesis though... I don't own the PPA-H... I just know the PPA isn't really any better at 50m as it is at 100m. The projectile speed isn't great enough... you basically saturate an area and splash them to death or hope that you can lead those infantry into a direct hit.

Whereas the others probably benefit more from closer distances.

Either way... those weapons needed to be separate and balanced separately as well. They are completely different weapons on a slow moving, heavily armored vehicle, compared to a very fast moving, lightly armored vehicle and should be treated as such.

This was due to the original PPA which was much more a slow-firing spam the area around and kill by splash type weapon. You waste a lot of shots just splashing infantry to death. It was even a 2-3 direct hit kill... They've changed the projectile stats enough over the last year where it might need the ammo and clip size adjusted, but the major selling point of the PPA always was the ability to fire forever... yet, it still was a slow shooting, slow projectile, spam weapon.

If you get a direct hit at 100-150m it was...
a) lucky shot
b) non-moving target
c) one hell of a skill shot in leading your target.

The PPA is the best, but since using tanks against infantry is a cheap easy mode thing,all should be removed.

It's mostly situational, but most of the time I'll run a basilisk or a halberd just for safety. IMO the AI weapons for MBTs aren't worth it. The Marauders on a harasser is very good, same with the ppa. TBH I didn't know the Canister existed, and I'm being completely honest. On Matherson I had never been killed by one, until one day one killed me and I said "What was that?"

My point is, is that unless you're running a AI tank, your going to lose to a AT tank. You have to be willing to sacrifice your tank for some soft kills, and I know most experienced tank drivers aren't going for that.

150MM AP alone is not going to let you win even with VG shield against a decent opponent. Stop the blatant lies please.

I've had plenty of proper AV MBT vs AV MBT fights to know what the Vanguard, Magrider and the Prowler are capable of.

Out of the Mag and Prowler I'm more afraid of the Magriders because of magburn.

Yes, the Vanguard shield is a powerful ability, but it doesn't make fights an auto win if you fight against someone with a brain who uses terrain to his advantage, like they should.

I digress from the point of the thread though; I'm not really aiming at getting AV power for the AI weapon of the Vanguard. I simply want it to perform well in it's intended role and I want enemies actually to be afraid of it, like NC and TR are afraid of getting hit by the PPA(Same goes for the Marauder, from all this I would say that the marauder is completely out of place for the Prowler and needs to be changed somehow).

This reaction is literally the best reason to pull my Canguard loadout.

Also it's great for punishing gunners whose egos may be flying a bit too close to the sun

I honestly don't know. From all the discussions I've seen people have made suggestions on making it similar to Flak cannon secondary shot from unreal tournament but in my opinion that would only make it a slow rof marauder/fury which doesn't strike to me as a good idea.

You're the most evil person on the planet if you make people gun that thing

Please devs just redesign the c85. It's sorely needed. My vote is for a mounted gauss weapon that shoots 2 round burst low direct hit and low indirect damage high velocity projectiles.

IMO marauader should stay essentially the same but reduce it's damage in exchange for being able to have higher velocity and less projectile drop so it can reach a bit further. The marauder at medium range is still a beast.

I feel like a second round of empire specific MBT weapons should also come with the new faction specific harassers whenever they come.