Liberator with Dalton against ESF has got to go.

My ESF is good at everything, my AP tank this morning was farming the crap out of infantry, killed 5 tanks and 3 liberators and 2 reavers. And don't forget, Heavy Assualts are also good at everything and they don't even cost resources. It's not that OP. It just takes skill.

It's a gunship, not a bomber. Stop worrying so much about realism, because if the game was realistic, every building would be turned into ruins, every tank destroyed, every infantry farmed, etc simply because aircraft dominate in realistic combat.

Disagree. Learn to fly!

Is he doing barrel rolls?

Just gonna post what I posted in that other thread:

Nerf the dalton to only take 85% ESF HP in 1 shot and significantly buff the walker and the drake.
The dalton is just too strong vs air IMHO but the Liberator as a whole is too weak vs air.

Moin

Well, to be fair Matti didn't do anything "wrong". He just fought us the "risky way" . My guess would be he didn't recognize our names, at that time he killed us like 3-4x during our first weeks in the liberator and we didn't have a noteworthy reputation as liberator crew. But aaaanyway, he didn't react with "DALTON OH-PEE, PLX NERFS". He took his hat off to us, whispered me that it was a great shot, included the kill in one of his videos (07:35) and liked my montage.

You are bad, biased and have no clue. I put you on my ignore list now, never read a post worth reading from you.

Actually posting it from his point of view makes me think he was actually really cocky about it. Hovering still like he was when Daltons were wizzing just over his head was just not a good idea. especially since he had the afterburner fuel to increase the distance between the two of you. I think he is a great pilot (all other opinions aside), but I have seen him do that in quite a few videos and take a Dalton to the face because of it

"Well you must be a poor aim, because it is only 145 rounds to kill a lib."

Of all the responses, this i want to see on video. 600 rounds may have been an exaggeration, or it may have been a roughly accurate perceived amount of TOTAL ROUNDS FIRED, but I assure you at least 300 of Anteres DID hit the Liberator at varying distances (this particular Liberator was about 300 meters out when I first began to fire, most rounds fired were hit-registered) AND I wasn't alone, there was another Scythe also defending itself that had to get a few rounds in. Yes that is correct, defending itself, this is the new phenomenon, Lib crews will positions themselves between an enemies warpgate and a hotspot on the map to intercept ESF's one by one as they stream out of the Warpgate. This other Scythe was taken out by the Dalton while I was rammed.

A Liberator should not have the same top speed as an ESF, you should be able to escape one. And another poster is correct, all the comments about how difficult it is to hit an ESF are moot because the only way to engage a Liberator, which you will have to do as you can't escape, is to face them head on, leaving you vulnerable to incoming Dalton fire.

I would much rather have the ability to just evade these camping, highly skilled Liberator crews than be forced to engage them and lose over and over.

Other comments about only engaging Liberators with coordinated tactics are relevant but I seldom hear ANY kind of communication from other ESF pilots and I am always on comms. I do try to wait at a warpgate and avoid flying solo, but it seems unless the ESF is in the same platoon, or squad for that matter, we usually have different destinations and split up shortly after departing the warpgate.

The point is, an ESF ought to be able to either evade or dissuade highly competent Lib crews from picking on them, this could be accomplished by decreasing damage resistance solely to ESF weapons and/or reducing the Liberators maximum speed and/or increasing an ESF's acceleration and maximum speed and/or reducing the damage taken by a Dalton round to such that it "only" reduces an ESF's health by 75%. A Dalton will still take out slightly damaged ESF's but not an ESF with full health. The argument about the level of skill required to pull this off is, I believe, a non-argument. People are doing it. Tony Hawk learned how to balance on and jump in the air with and flip a piece of plywood with four wheels on it and successfully land it on a stairway guard rail and then jump again at the end of it, flip this thing once again, do a 360 spin in the air and land. Humans have the ability to learn to do just about anything. The Dalton is now OP because of this. The Liberator was designed primarily as an anti-armor vehicle. It is now being abused as an anti-air vehicle that has no real counter in the game.

I am not proposing that an ESF ought to be able to solely engage and destroy a fully manned Liberator. I AM proposing that an ESF be afforded the ability to either evade or dissuade competent Liberator crews from hunting them with impunity.

Either that or increase the resource cost of a Liberator to double that of an ESF or reduce the resource cost of an ESF to the level of performance in relation to a Liberator, about 100-200 resources.

Additionally, I feel that the recent acceleration nerf the ESF received has in some measure contributed to the ESF's vulnerability. I don't fully understand the need for the devs to reduce the ESF's acceleration and would greatly appreciate an increase in acceleration and maximum speed.

I am willing to bet nearly everyone here in defense of the Liberator flies them in exactly the manner I am describing and nearly everyone in agreement with my sentiment has been experiencing what I am experiencing.

Why don't you try... keeping your distance?

I have also said this in the past, a Liberator that flips upside down, defying physics on Earth and certainly on Auraxis where the rationale of the exaggerated bullet-drop is "the greater gravity of Auraxis" should not be possible; this greater gravity should pull an upside-down Liberator out of the sky like a rock.

Problem solved SOE. Just introduce semi-realistic flight physics, slightly tweaked for the increased gravity of Auraxis, and we can see the Liberator return to its INTENDED role of staying upright and engaging armor with its ANTI-ARMOR dalton. I feel the need to underline, italicize and embolden this for emphasis:

ANTI-ARMOR DALTON.

Maybe also increasing the font size will help get the point across? Here, I've also centered it in bold relief with the largest font available in a vain attempt to get THE POINT through to everyone who enjoys abusing the Liberator:

ANTI-ARMOR DALTON

They don't.

You can.

See videos I posted on the last page.

Run Extended afterburners and/or Racer airframe. Never worry about any Lib chasing you ever again.

Well duh. Prox chat isn't exactly a viable method for the distances aircraft fight each other at, and typing stuff out while flying is asking for death. Additionally, squading up with people tends to improve communication and the ability to exercise tactics. Who'da thunk it?

Your entire argument is based around the Lib crew being better than you. Why should a vehicle be nerfed because a very small portion of the player base is very skilled with it?

You already can, and the recent patches make it easier than ever to get away.

Pointless idea. Resource cost only effects those with highly certed acquisition timers. If you aren't that good in an ESF, and someone Daltons you soon after you pull it, chances are you can go make all, or at least most of those resources back by the time you can pull again.

Racer frame + Extended Afterburners.

I don't fly liberators at all, and I disagree with you.

I shouldn't have to sacrifice a secondary weapon solely to be able to evade a Liberator. And the "high-speed racer chassis" isn't worth it, it only provides what another 25 KPH top-speed meanwhile you sacrifice a lot in terms of agility or hover stability. Hey if this is your favored configuration, that's great, but I am NOT going to run the weakest chassis and afterburner solely to cope with Liberators.

It is apparent and has been pointed out by many other ESF pilots that the racer frame could use an increase in top-speed. Right now it isn't worth certing into.

You say the recent patch makes it easier to get away? Then why does the ESF feel significantly more sluggish? Unless I am mistaken, don't the recent patch-notes, that of PU-02, state that the ESF now has reduced acceleration? How does this make it easier to get away?

You say a Liberator doesn't have the same top speed as an ESF without afterburner, then why can't I escape them if I attempt to? Why can they follow me for upwards of 5 minutes until successfully hitting me with Dalton, Shredder or Tank-Buster? Hmmm, I am confused, could we get the maximum speed of a Liberator with racer chassis and a Scythe with a dogfighting chassis without afterburner?

"Who'd ya thunk it". Your feedback, while appreciated, doesn't have to be so snarky. Your choice of wording seems to imply that I am an incompetent buffoon who just installed and began playing Planetside 2 a few days ago and am exaggerating or hallucinating about the subject matter.

NO **** teaming up with a group of ESF's is going to increase your survivability. Again, I must be a buffoon! Thank's for the enlightenment oh anonymous passive-aggressive internet somebody!

And your comments totally invalidate my perception that the Liberator is OP, that it is being abused and that you can't outrun them.

+30 KPH for Mossy, +35 for Scythe and Reaver. But that is pretty pointless, because it is evident that you just don't care to learn what you are doing wrong. All the means to either fight against a Lib or escape one are already in game. You can choose to use them or not to, but ******** about a liberators speed when all the means are available to far outpace one just makes you look ignorant.

It wasn't worth it BEFORE. It most certainly is worth it NOW.

Considering I have hundreds of hours in a Mossy, and I didn't notice one bit of sluggishness in my Mossy in the 7 or so hours I played last night (including the several 1v2 fights against some of Mattherson's best lib crews), I am going to atone this to "THEY SECRETLY NERFED EVERYTHING" syndrome. The acceleration of ESFs has not been touched and it is all in your head. If you don't believe so, here are the patch notes to PU02. Please find the part where it says ESF acceleration has been reduced.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...cember-17-2013-9-30-am-pt-6-30-pm-cet.162621/

Liberators cruise at about 220 with vertical thrust. The Reaver, which has the slowest cruise speed of the ESFs, also goes about 220. All ESFs however get 4.2 seconds of afterburner at the minimum. This lets the slowest afterburner ESFs, the Scythe and Mossy, to go 100 KPH faster than a lib, which is more than enough speed to put distance between you and a lib. Throw in Extended afterburners (+4.2 more seconds and much faster regen time) or Racer frame (Reaver now goes 250 cruise speed, Mossies and Scythes go 350 with afterburners), and you will very easily escape a lib.

No, it implies that you want things changed for you because you refuse to learn and/or use what is available to you.

You're the one who said:

"I seldom hear ANY kind of communication from other ESF pilots and I am always on comms. I do try to wait at a warpgate and avoid flying solo, but it seems unless the ESF is in the same platoon, or squad for that matter, we usually have different destinations and split up shortly after departing the warpgate."

That sounds like someone who is just making excuses for why someone who has spent time learning their weapon and vehicle killed you. Why do you expect people you aren't flying with to be able to communicate and coordinate with you? Being on comms doesn't matter if you have no effective way to communicate with people who aren't in your squad or platoon.

It's been this way for a while now that if 2 ace pilots get shot out their ESF by other ESF they tend to go for the lib rather than replace their ESF with purely AA loadouts and limit the targets they can engage, which says an aweful lot about the role of the lib.

The libs health is fine, the thing can't kill so great at 500m and certainly not if it's moving to avoid ninja tanks taking a pop, or those pesky TR dumbfires that deal something like 49.9% damage and 1 shot ESF.

The only problem with the lib is its ability to play AA. People exagerate how hard it is to take out ESF witht he Dalton. As long as the Lib pilot plays to close the distance rather than run, the projectile speed of the Dalton means you barely have to lead but the length of an ESF within 100m.

What? I don't think I have ever seen a single "ace" use that line of thinking.

I ain't wasting my time making a video for someone who has no idea what VR is (where do you think I got the 145 rounds to kill figure from dummy).

And just to finish off this whole debate.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...cHJlWkJXYy13WVROc2s2TTNjOWc&usp=sharing#gid=0


The Dalton is sooooooo OP, that it comes behind the Vanguards main gun for ESF kills. In other words the Dalton accounts for 0.66% of all ESF deaths from the highest performing faction. It isnt going to get nerfed any time soon (no matter how bad a pilot someone is) when it is performing like this.

And finally this....

You as a human have the ability to learn just about anything, so why not learn to fight against a lib solo. Basically it boils down to L2P.

And I will repeat myself again, 21 hour in a lib with 74 days of gameplay (that only three times as much time as I have spent in a drop pod to give a comparison). I am an ESf pilot foremost when it comes to the air game. Your argument is invalid and ad hominem.

/end thread

The fact that I can kill almost every Liberator I encounter in my ESF makes this a clear "learn how its done" issue.

1. Watch the Liberator from a distance, and wait until he's hurt or being attacked by another plane.
2. Maintain 200m+ distance while firing the nose gun.
3. Constantly alternate ascending/descending with each shot of his Dalton. This will prevent the gunner from hitting you 99% of the time.
4. If he charges with the Tankbuster, you run toward friendly territory and turn back on him when he turns around. If he chases you all the way to your warpgate, he'll get mobbed by your team.
5. If he runs from you, pursue while staying out of the Dalton firing arc if possible. If he's flying on his back, pursue at 200m+ while using ascend/descend to dodge Dalton shots.

Both Liberators and ESFs can hit ground targets, and both can destroy air targets. Don't pretend that your ESF is special and just gets a free kill on every Liberator you run across. You have to know what you're doing and practice, but you can kill a 2-man aircraft with your 1-man aircraft just fine.

lol wat?

Do you fly them both?

I'm going to guess no.

Update:

A Liberator can take 190 rounds of Anteres at 200 meters before being destroyed. Believe it or not 200 meters isn't a great distance, I encourage anyone who is curious to set their waypoint on a Liberator in VR to see for themselves. The Anteres begins to drop off in damage at beyond this range. Damage drops from 220 beyond 200 meters to 180 beyond 275 meters. I will try to do some testing at 300 meters but back of the envelop calculation would be:

Damage under 200 meters:

220 x 190 = ~41,800.

Estimated rounds fired to incur 41,800 damage at 300 meters:

41,800/180 = 232 rounds.

What is excluded from this testing is the existence and use of counter-measures, such as fire suppression which immediately restores 12% of a Liberators health or around 4k hit-points:

4k HP/200 damage average = 20 additional rounds.

So with a Liberator with fire suppression we are looking at 250 rounds to destroy. This is a far cry from 142 rounds, the claim made by someone in response to the assertion that a Liberator can sustain way too much damage from an ESF. I feel that a Liberator should receive a minor damage resistance nerf against ESF fire and ESF fire alone. Something like a 25% reduction, or 175 rounds total absorbed from an average of 250 meters to result in a destroyed Liberator.

Maximum speed:

Liberator equipped with 'high-speed air-frame' has a maximum speed of 198 KPH.

Scythe with 'dog-fighting air-frame' equipped has a maximum speed of 199 KPH.

Also worthy of note, a Liberator succumbs to two complete 14 Photon Rocket salvos whereas a Lightning can be destroyed with only one complete rocket salvo sustained to its rear-end.

hi there, the GUNSHIP plane should probably be good against everything because it has a BFC ... big effing cannon

but hey the esf is meant to kill air yet it out performs the lib at A2G , food for thought

also you are slightly wrong about the physics, first off its a game, so none of this matters
but they have thrusters in all directions hence why an esf can fly upwards while upside down,

also you know what type of vehicle IRL is the most common "hover" aircraft, hmm maybe the helicopter, i mean surely a puny 20th century helicopter wont be able to pull off crazy inverted maneuvers... OH NO WAIT!!!

Today I manged to destroy 2 ESF with dalton! I have no skill at it so it's a big achievement for me. Took many shots and they seemed to be low level pilots since they kept flying close to the cannon and failing to destroy us. They had >50 BR though.