Balance Pass Post 2: Nanoweave and Related Features

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by joshua, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Being@RT

    It depends on whether they stack additively or multiplicatively. It will undoubtedly change the effectiveness of the combo regardless though, if only because nanoweave becomes damage type specific.

    If they choose to give NW 5 the same percentage bonus as it has now with health (only against small arms fire though), we're looking at +25% resist on top of the 45% from resist shield.

    Additively, this would result in 70% resist, or 1000/0.3 = 3333 effective health, which is far more than than current NW+resist combo. Multiplicatively this would result in 61.25% resist, 2580 effective health, which is a slight increase in EHP from current (2273). But it's damage type specific instead of universal.

    Flak + resist shield combo would end up as 95% resist (additively), which is completely ridiculous EHP of 20000, or 72.5% (multiplicative) EHP of 3636 (significantly higher than current 2500).

    I assume these work multiplicatively currently and in the future. There's also no guarantee they'll make NW have 25% resist, could be more, could be less. They could actually tune it to have the same EHP increase (except typespecific) as now with 9.090909...% / 11.111.. % / 13.04348 % / 16.666... % / 20%
    But I highly doubt they'd use such "unclean" numbers.

    ---

    That said, change to resists will alter the TTK of weapons depending on NW level from current if the EHP increase of nanoweave changes from current.

    Example1: Carv vs Gauss SAW, using 10/12.5/15/20/25 % for both health and resist.version of NW.

    Currently the TTK for these is equal (at under 10m) against a target without nanoweave at 0.48 seconds (5 and 7 bullets, respectively). NW1 adds 1 bullet to both, for TTKs of 0.56 and 0.6, NW2 doesn't change TTK, NW3 adds an extra bullet to Carv for 0.62 TTK, NW4 adds extra bullet to SAW for 0.72 TTK and NW5 doesn't change the situation.

    With NW changed to a resist modifier, NW might be 10/12.5/15/20/25%, reducing the damage of Carv to 128.7/125.125/121.55/114.4/107.25 and that of SAW to 180/175/170/160/150. Base bullets required for a kill will remain at 5 and 7, with NW1 adding one to both (0.56 and 0.6), NW2 not changing TTK, NW3 adding one for Carv (0.62 and 0.6), NW4 adding for SAW (0.62 and 0.72) and NW5 adding one more to Carv (0.70 and 0.72).

    So between these two weapons, the Carv would see slower kills against NW5 targets than currently, although still marginally faster than Gauss SAW. In fact, every 143 damage weapon will need one more bullet (at point blank range) to kill a NW5 target than now, while 167 damage weapons require an extra bullet at NW3 but are otherwise unchanged and 200 damage weapons don't change at any NW level.

    ---

    tl;dr-- IF new Nanoweave resists are 10/12.5/15/20/25% and resist shield+nanoweave/flak armor work multiplicatively
    - Nanoweave+resist shield combo is buffed against smallarms (+13% EHP), nerfed against explosions (-25% EHP).
    - Flak + resist shield will be better against explosions as well (+45% EHP).
    - NW alone will be buffed against smallarms (+6.666.. % EHP), nerfed against explosions (-25% EHP)
    - 143 damage weapons need one more bullet to kill NW5 targets than currently
    - 167 damage weapons need one more bullet to kill NW3 targets (but no more than currently for NW4 or 5)
    - 200 damage weapons are unchanged in TTK.
    - It is possible for SOE to pick new NW resist values that don't change EHP of any target (other than non-smallarms damage of course), but those numbers aren't nice to look at and so my guess is it won't happen.
    • Up x 1
  2. Greddy

    I dont get it... We have a energy shield that absorb incoming damage for our whole body.
    The energy field around our head: why does it take more energy to protect our head then let say our other limbs?

    Shouldnt the damage overall be static until our shield are drained? and then when the dmg go to our real health have a modifier? Doesent that make more sense: being more susceptible for a one hit kill through our head, when the shield are gone?
    • Up x 3
  3. Cinnamon

    Actually I have argued and I believe that the opposite should be true for HA shields.

    Small damage should pass through while large damage should be shielded.

    The reason for this is that the HA is supposed to be something that lets the heavy assault take shots at vehicles and breach rooms. Neither of which are things that are low damage threshold things. But at the moment the advantage that HA shields give against things like smg and knives are too much. They are making HA the main counter to agile infantry who outflank them as they are supposed to. But those shields should protect some against bolt action shots otherwise how are HA supposed to carry out their head on assault role in the open?
  4. St0mpy

    Joshua, removing small arms headshot protection from NWA is going to make an already short TTK in general gunplay even shorter.

    Is this intended?
    • Up x 4
  5. NinjaTurtle

    Bolt actions are still very powerful. Good positioning will now actually reward headshots. You don't have to be sitting 300m away to get a good vantage point. I have Auraxiumed both the Longshot and the Bolt Driver and I'd say 90% of all my kills with those weapons were from within 100m from effective positioning

    I fail to see how this makes them useless, if anything it makes them easier to use
  6. MrEclectic

    That is an interesting suggestion. In my view, the HA is the class that can engage more than one opponent at a time, thus creating those flanking opportunities, by concentrating fire on themselves, thus creating gaps to be exploited. If I get it right, you propose that the HA's main focus would be closing distance. Nevertheless, wouldn't that mean that then the opposing side would focus fire on the other classes even moreso than now?

    Support classes are always priority target, but because of their resistances and killing power, HAs cannot be ignored, drawing fire. If shield would work mainly against long range high damage fire, then noone would target them. Thus they wouldn't work as bullet sponges, drawing fire away from the support classes. Plus there is the whole Rocket Launcher AV business to consider.

    Not that I object to what you're proposing (or that it would matter :) ). It is intriguing, and these are just my initial hesitations. Care to elaborate?
  7. Kunavi

    If you *&$( up Snipers THAT bad then you better get completely rid of these dudes too :
    [IMG]

    That's a Light Assault with C4, for those who can't tell the obvious.

    And even then, I think you just DELETED A CLASS except if we roll SMG, for which, every other single Class is better suited any way. LOL!
    • Up x 1
  8. vipjerry


    In PS1 infiltrator couldn't use sniper and no one had problem with it. Sniper + infiltrator was a bad idea from start...
    • Up x 3
  9. Being@RT

    Let's do a quick comparison table for this.

    Code:
      at point blank range (before damage falloff)
    Weapon headshot      bullets to kill with headshots
    damage  damage      NW0  NW1  NW2  NW3  NW4  NW 5
     
    400      800        2    2    2    2    2    2
    -without NW changes  2    2    2    2    2    2
     
    334      668        2    2    2    2    2    2
    -without NW changes  2    2    2    2    2    2
     
    250      500        2    2    2    2    2    2
    -without NW changes  2    3    3    3    3    3
     
    200      400        3    3    3    3    3    3
    -without NW changes  3    3    3    3    3    4
     
    167      334        3    3    3    3    3    3
    -without NW changes  3    4    4    4    4    4
     
    143      286        4    4    4    4    4    4
    -without NW changes  4    4    4    5    5    5
     
    125      250        4    4    4    4    4    4
    -without NW changes  4    5    5    5    5    5
    
    The big gains are for 250 damage weapons (battle rifles), 167 damage weapons and 125 damage weapons, requiring one less bullet to kill than currently for any nanoweave level. While Gauss SAW with its 200 damage sees some benefit, it won't be as much as the 143 damage weapons (two fewer NW level affected, though we don't have any data on how many people use what levels of NW so the exact impact is kind of hard to determine.. I imagine there's a lot of people with NW4 rather than NW5 because of the final level cert cost though).

    In terms of TTK, ignoring accuracy, 3 shots at 500 RPM is a TTK of 0.24, while 4 shots with 750RPM is 0.24 also. The winners in TTK comparison will be 845 RPM 143 damage weapons (GD-7F, Serpent, 0.213s) or 896 RPM 125 damage weapon (Armistice, 0.201). Technically 334 damage battle rifles have the shortest TTK of 0.180 seconds, but then they already had that pre-changes and still nobody uses them so I hesitate calling them the winnder

    So even though slow weapons also benefit, the fast RoF weapons either benefit as much or more and retain their TTK advantage while generally being easier to aim with, at least in close quarters. Damage Falloff increases the TTK of slow firing weapons more as well since each extra bullet is a relatively bigger chunk of the total TTK.

    Do note that the table changes a lot with damage falloff factored in, although so does the difficulty of getting those headshots.

    edit: corrected error on 200 damage pre-change, changed alignment of lines again (I already corrected it once on preview, but the final version was mucked up anyway, lol)..

    edit2: Technically 334 damage semi-auto scout rifles have the shortest TTK of 0.180 seconds, but then they already have that now and still very few people use them so I hesitate calling them a winner in this.. Well, that's on paper, since if you're within max damage distance, you shouldn't be using that weapon. and out of max damage distance, the TTK doubles :p
    • Up x 1
  10. Lessonteacher

    I dont really care about the nanoweave changes although other loadouts still have their benefits. What i dont like is the 150m OHK change.

    What is the point of that change.... i rarely die to snipers, given if im wearing nanoweave then i definitely wont die but otherwise it is rare to find skilled players effectively sniping me whilst moving AND actually attacking an objective. For players farming stationary outside... maybe they have an issue with a OHK but for me the sniper requires some attention and this is not the attention i expected.

    Frankly, with the maximum power rifle i think any character should die in one hit from a HEADSHOT, the video shown in the first pages had some amazingly trivial shots at average distance. At longer distances targets become even harder to hit in the head. Why should we accommodate people standing still not even moving... The sniper had to get to a position to target and suppress those players, and every time they shoot they have an obvious tracer, and they also light up on the mini map so any player (including those in vehicles) can drive over and obliterate them.

    I would prefer to see some actual updates to 'snipers' not infiltrators, examples:
    • Suppressors that dont ruin the effectiveness of the rifle
    • IR / Thermal scopes that work at longer ranges and can actually be equipped to better rifles.
    • What about an audio sensor for the rifle that highlights blips for players within the area of scope target
    Currently i have no time for 'snipers' in my outfit they achieve very little and only have a positive effect on their individual cert gain at the nearest farm... how about focusing on making them a little more useful for the team and making their weapons better would be a start. Lets be honest here, the SMGs are amazing so i dont think they need any buffs in that department.
    • Up x 1
  11. Cinnamon

    If heavies take on multiple targets head on then they kill them all and there is no need or time for flanking. But then both sides would have heavies.

    In reality there is cover and if you are having no players have the confidence to leave cover and move out then there is too much stalemate gameplay where people take pot shots at each other. The worst of this is when you have a huge line of snipers way in the back waiting for someone to break cover. In planetside it's not the "enemy at the gates" fantasy of one skilled gunman in an intelligent position waiting for that perfect shot that will help win the war. It's like 5-20 guys on a hill constantly firing and suppressing a position making people resort vehicle spam.
    • Up x 1
  12. Stinneyt

    Good job SOE. Way to totally miss the point.
    Its like you're actively trying to **** up the game.
  13. Liewec123

    not too sure, with it turning in to a flat damage resistance rather than a health increase it will boost the effects of the shield,
    so they probably won't even get to your health through the colossal damage resistance :)
  14. Wayfar

    Yeah it is weird right? Makes me go:

    [IMG]
    • Up x 1
  15. LunacyStudy

    I like the Nanoweave explosives changes. I don't like the headshot change. It tips the balance of small-arms engagements even more in favour of high-skilled players.

    My biggest issue currently is introducing new players to the game, or trying to get people to try it again after not being able to play on release. At present, headshots give a good advantage, but not an overwhelming one - a new player can still beat a vet if they flank with an easy-to-use weapon, even if they only score bodyshots. Certain vets will also prefer other things in their suit slot that provide more utility - I myself prefer grenade bandolier on my close-quarters heavy-assault, for example - so for a new player to pick up nanoweave makes sense.

    If that benefit is removed from headshots, vets may still have the upper hand on new players, even after a successful flank and good bodyshots from the new player. All things considered, I'm not sure the learning curve of this game needs to be even steeper.
    • Up x 1
  16. Vulae

    With the change to nanoweave, and the cert refund, is it possible for you guys to also refund our certs for our heavy shields, don't think i'll be wanting to use the resist shield at all after this update...
  17. Zherron

    Nanoweave change = OK, Sniper nerf = NO

    Main Infiltrator here:
    Thx for ruining the long range sniping and the half infiltrator class. It was not easy to land a headshot at long ranges and only camping targets were "easier" to kill (their fault). Also it was essential to stay undiscovered, with "Some type of visual mechanic that calls out the sniper’s location" a sniper is already ******. Usually there are instantly firing at you with HE rounds or a ESF takes you out.

    Nanoweave was a good option to protect against headshots. Now we have another poor mechanic in game (150m cap)
    At this range I usually choose the SMG-Infiltrator build. Amount of bolt actions in game -> 0

    A cert/SC refund is absolutely needed for this class and affected weapons. Who needs a LA-clone with cloaking ability? Just to hack terminals and then switch to something else!

    Btw. you say following:
    So when do you nerf the AV Mana turret range and lock on range for rocketlaunchers?! It's not fun because: Dying to a AV guy that you never had a chance to see is a poor gameplay experience for everyone on the receiving end.

    And now we lose an options to kill them... WE NEED HELP HERE, INSTANTLY !!!

    Sry, I'm a bit angry when you decide to nerf something not essential and on the other side we have gamebreaking stuff for almost a year.
    Before you nerf something play PS2. Try to play as an sniper at long range and you will see how easy it is. Bullet drop, bullet speed etc. Sry, I think you have no gameplay experience. :(
    • Up x 1
  18. sparr

    I have a question about refunds, and certs limit

    Right now I have almost 5k certs to spend. My Nanowave is almost fully certed @all calasses.
    When it will refund, I will get over 5K certs - is there a limit to certs you can have ? (someone told me that max is 9999)
  19. Bvenged

    I'm looking forward to all of these changes, except for one. My only concern however is with the decrease in explosion damage coupled with a flak armour buff; I'd say reduce the effectiveness of flak armour a teeny bit now as well.

    As for the snipers: I don't snipe, but when I get sniped in the head from extreme ranges, it's because I'm stood like a lemming outside cover. That's my own fault, not the sniper being OP.

    So drop that sniper bolt-action nerf. It really is unnecessary. Beyond 150 metres is rock-hard to get a head shot as it is. The small arms resistance of nanoweave is enough.
    • Up x 1
  20. NDroid

    The 150m limitation is too short. The important roles a sniper can fulfill better than most are things like countering AV Mana turrets and AV nests, suppressing engineers trying to repair base turrets and counter-sniping. To perform these roles a sniper needs to be able to kill his targets at 250m-300m ranges since getting too close to the enemy will generally get him killed.

    Are long range snipers really this big of an issue? The game has other things that can kill you from a long range without you being able to prevent it. There are few people who can consistently land headshots at those ranges and they generally don't affect the outcome of a battle. If i get sniped from such a distance while moving at least I can appreciate the skill that it took to make the shot.

    What this change will cause is more Infiltrators running around with SMGs, and fewer counters to AV Mana turrets (and we still haven't seen a balance post regarding those- I'm hoping it's on the way).