NC hit harder but

The next batch of LMGs

TR and VS 167-143@600RpM
NC: 750 and 698RpM 143-124dmg....

cuz omg, he has betterererer toys then me I wantz them! SoE goes...ok...heres u goez!

lame.

I just want a .75 movement LMG. It's no coincidence those weapons are considered best in their respective categories.

I was just replying to someone claiming that although the Vanguard hit harder, it had the lowest MBT main gun DPS, which is not true. I wasn't making a claim of the Vanguard being OP, just pointing out someones mistake. I am fully aware that when an equally skilled and certed AV load-out Magrider and Vanguard fight, it usually comes down to the range and terrain, I have a reasonable amount of experience with it.

NC hit harder at first but then someone stole their weapon blueprint and distribute it to all other faction
Commisioner and underboss are definitely NC trait weapon
NC sniper used to hit hard at first too but now every faction has identical NC sniper
Shotgun is NC trait. They hav shotgun in almost everything tank, aircraft, max, infantry. Oh wait all of us hav shotgun too

So right now NC doesn't hit harder
NC just... hard

Indeed, just as I said.

TR have two carbines with equiverlent DPS to the GD-7F with slightly slower RoF.

One being very similar to the GD-7F but with a much bigger clip and the other being reasonable equiverlent to the GD-7F in CQB but much, much better at medium and long range..... and it still has a much bigger clip.

To give either of those Carbines the same RoF as the GD-7F would REQUIRE their damage per bullet to be seriously NERFED and indeed the bullets per clip to be nerfed too.

It's not just LMGs.

Look at Carbine RoF, ALL TR Carbines have a better RoF then EVERY NC Carbine except the GD-7F.



When you look at the supposed "NC" weapons they have a lot of drawbacks, lower DPS, low clip size, high bloom after first shot. The AX-C11 for example is a poor CQB Carbine and a poor long range Carbine (the Razor is just plain better).
Higher damage per shot doens't make up for that, the only "NC" weapon that really works is the NC6, but that's only better than the EM6 at firing out of spawn shields.

And remember NC in PS1 had the best shotguns, in PS2 everyone has the best Shotguns.

Sorry, but that is just nonsense.

1. DPS on target is EVERYTHING. Even the best shooters with an NC weapon will struggle to equal an average shooter with a TR weapon.

2. The skill ceiling on NC weapon isn't that high (it's not like you can get 100% accuracy by practice, in fact accuracy stats are very similar between NC and TR, mostly because of NC bloom after first shot and recoil), certainly not high enough to make up for the lost of raw DPS.

Of course TR do.

In LMGs every TR LMG has a higher RoF then every NC LMG, except for 1 TR LMG. = TR RoF massively higher than NC (and NC DPS lower).
In Carbine every TR Carbine has a higher RoF then every NC Carbine except the GD-7F (but the TR have two Carbines that equal it's DPS - and exceed its damage on target most likely).



Where as what do the NC get? Lower RoF on almost every weapon and largely lower clip sizes and lower DPS. It's quite clear which faction is getting the short straw.......... which is likely why TR is now the overpopulation on every server but one these days.

I'm sorry but I have to laugh a little under my breath when people point to weapon stats like rounds per minute damage per bullet and all that other crap. Proof is in the pudding I mean seriously I can go toe to toe as a heavy(no P shield on) using a gd22 against an infil touting an SMG inside 10 feet and lose hands down every single time unless I get the total drop on him.

Why is this one might ask? bad player?

in short NO! because I can rank middle of scoreboard if I try so im an OK player

Its because the smg touter appears to suffer less of a flinch mechanic from the 2 rounds that actually connect from my LMG than an HA being sprayed by a weapon that is clearly not balanced.

the size of the bullets im hitting him/her with should bloom their COF to the point where they'd be lucky to even land a shot.
Never mind the fact that an infil is supposed to be light weight un-armored and agile, in other words 3 LMG rounds should tear them apart.

yes I know the SMGxors suxorz at a rangexors, "look at the spreadsheet" but your only fighting at a range of 100m+ like 15% of the time. The other 85% of the time is within facilities.

I don't need to look at any spread sheets I have tested the SMG in VR and counted 1..2..3..4..5 rounds close range chest hits to a heavy and 2 for the head. this is exactly the same number from my LMG in VR. so either VR is bugged the SMG has the same damage per round inside 10 feet or the spreadsheet lies.

I also noticed 2 of the SMG's available in the depo are only purchasable with station cash WTF is that!

I was pithced all weapons were available though the cert grind!

Higsby explain please.

SC only weapons are recoloured standard weapons with identical stats. You just pay for a fancier looks

And on the topic of the TMG50, yeah, its a wanna be NC gun. Its bloom and overall accuracy is wouch scary bad. Something about it just doesnt feel as good as the NC guns.

Its aight but.....it isnt amazing.

And since edit wont work

The T16, its terribad as well.

I will hand it the accuracy, it is insanely accurate, but its 143@652, it just doesnt compete with NC guns for sure. EM6 and AF19 guys tonight were ripping my *** up for the short time i trialed the T16. Its the T16 I remember, accurate but not deadly.

T16 is a good defense weapon I suppose.

Absolutely, proof is in the pudding and the pudding is the API data and if you look at the API data you will see a relatively stable trend overall among factions and within most classes, weapon groups, and vehicles.

The data is there, people have tried to use it and all it resulted in was flak from SOE (sorry CupBoy, what a bunch of crap) and flak from people who hold contradictory personal opinions.

All this arguing is pointless- faction/weapon performance is an empirical fact. SOE has data for the entire population of Planetside 2 players and could very easily make this information more accessible and the truth about faction performance more transparent.

They could, were they to choose, actually moderate these discussions by interjecting actual facts and meaningful comparisons- even fancy modeling to adjust for various variables of interest. You know, give the players some actual truths that can orient our discussions in a more meaningful way rather than just closing threads when they see fit and calling that moderating. SOE chooses not to do so and I would assume they do so because it is more profitable for people to bicker over anecdotal information than have meaningful discussions grounded in actual facts.

All this worthless arguing is really tiresome.

Not sure what game you guys are playing, but rate of fire is king in 1 v 1. Gaus Saw class weapons are nice at mid to long range as long as you don't move. Get up close and an NC without a shotgun is sorely over-matched. There are 2 non - shotgun NC weapons that can match other factions in CQC. They are the GD - 7S and the Cyclone, IMO. I have all the smg's but the Cyclone is my personal choice. It just plain hits harder.

im curious have you ever played the acual game? ^^ because your game logic is so different from the acual game..

harder hitting weapons that are harder to hit with
so a pro might actually see higher DPS than TR/VS equivalent weapons,
but everyday players will likely see lower DPS due to missing shots punishing you a lot more than TR with Spray and Pray weapons.

a good exemple for the "hit harder" is the starting SAW. it does the most dmg per bullet, but iti s the worse weapon to start playing with. low rate of fire, reload take 8 second. and the worse of all, the recoil. first shot is accurate but just go in the VA fire it with aim down, if you burst you can have 3 bullet touching target by aiming at chest first. you can get 4-5 when it is fully cert ( adv grip and rail thing). tryed VS and TR and they starting are so enjoyable to use, they can go full auto and not miss you, when doing so as NC will make you miss everything at close range

That's the problem. We're not playing Call of Duty; where the majority of the time you run head on at people & panic spray. Maybe you think you are. I think a good chunk of people come in with the wrong approach to the game and when they don't have the same success like in CoD, they make threads like this. One factor that changes this combat dynamic is that the majority of the game isn't 1vs1. I sure as hell play the game differently than the crapload of hours I've spent on Black Ops 1&2 and MW3. If it was just about ROF then I and many other players would use nothing but the Carv or MSW-R. But that's not the case.


When the game launched it made sense to choose the current HA LMG starter weapons because each exemplified the faction trait. But it's clear now that the NC starting weapon should be something else. I think that would change the amount of threads on this issue. This recruit reward gives them the EM6 when they sign up.




I also don't quite understand the "go full auto" viewpoint. It's not like I hold down LMB and spray all my 100 rounds at one target. If spraying targets was the epitome of infantry combat in PS2 then the Carv-S with extended mag would be the best TR LMG. But I think it's a terrible weapon (I have 800+ kills with it) & barely anyone uses it. I should also seemingly love my Armistice; nope, regret buying it.

I agree with most of the things being said. But not the part with the DPS. Theoretical DPS comparison is meaningful only when you start firing at the same time, each holding down the trigger and land every shot. That only really happens in CQC (and with guns like Rhino/Bull where you don't need to release trigger because of the small CoF and low kick, but even then some bullets will miss). At range where you need to burst fire RoF doesn't have the same meaning, since you now have to factor in the time to wait for CoF and kicks to settle, which differ between guns and play style.

For instance, when I engage enemy armor in close range with my prowler, I can just swamp my opponents with my DPS, unless the vanguard turns on its shield. At range, the practical DPS for prowler is a lot lower, because each individual shot creates a kick, meaning that I need to readjust after every shot. So for every shot that a magrider or a vanguard takes, I need to spend twice as much time re-sighting my gun for comparable/ slightly higher damage, and so my DPS may actually be lower than tankers from the other two factions.

Same with infantry weapons. Barring shotguns, our weapons dominate in close quarter, but all the high RoF guns suffer at long range. Recoils are calculated on a per-shot basis. With low damage guns (our's us usually 143 compared to 167 of NC's), we generally (not always true, like the rhino) suffer more recoil per unit of damage compared to NC counter part. Don't have charts on hand. But suppose a gun does 400 damage per bullet and has a recoil factor (after first shot) or 0.5, and another gun has 201 damage per bullet, fires twice as fast, and has a recoil factor of 0.3. After trading shots, the second gun does 402 damages for each 400 damages of the first gun, but because it fired 2 bullets, it's currently suffering a recoil of 0.6, while the first is only at 0.5.

The problem with accuracy comparison is that it does not tell the time to kill for the players. With the mechanism described above, TR and VS may simply be taking more time with aiming, as supposed to spraying bullets at long range, in which case accuracy across factions would be very even, and more importantly, so would DPS. That said, I think for cross-faction balancing, spraying more bullets should still happen more for the other 2 factions. Since you would get people spraying bullets more. (How players compensate for faster firing rate differ across gun imo though; I spray with TAR at long range, but I tone down my RoF with MSW) So maybe NC should use another buff, but certainly not to a degree where its accuracy becomes too much higher than the other 2 factions.

The problem is those NC weapons lose out in raw DPS, DPS on target and TTK (the only place they really have an advantage is placed single shots, which is a fairly niche advantage).

Which would be fine IF damage per shot gave some real advantage....... but the reality is high RoF still gives a much bigger advantage than high damage per shot (even if DPS were equal).

So it's effectively a double penalty.

And it's not just theorycrafting, as the API data seems to support this as well.



Having said that I'm not claiming balance is way out of wack, but I dispute that "NC" weapons carry any real advantage that suggests nerfing weapons like the GD-7F just because they ARE genuinely competative.

Rate of fire and the crazy server latency are the two big deciders in dying as infantry in this game. The rate of fire gets you kills, the latency causes really annoying things like dead players taking off half your health making it easier for the next guy, and my favorite: the mutual kills where both players kill each other (which just shouldn't happen in a game without a bleed mechanic).

My favorite example of the rate of fire being a bit too good was that I was an encounter at a fairly extreme range against a TR heaving using the MCG, on top of the rocks at tawrich where both of us had no cover and I engaged from what I assumed was a relatively safe range. I was engy with the Mercenary, and had to fire 10 separate 3 shot burts at the heavy to hit him reliably due to the distance. He went full auto with his MCG, and killed me while I was reloading.

I think the weapons were better before the foregrip nerfs at least for NC, as we were in a good spot after flinch got fixed. Now we are back to where we were: the high ROF weapons are superior by a noticeable amount. Maybe not a huge amount, but its definitely noticeable.

Yup, RoF wins all other things being equal (which is exactly why the GD-7F is the NCs best performing carbine kill-wise - even after the nerf), and when the DPS isn't equal in the first place...........

Well this thread got off track quickly.

To try and give an actual answer, each faction has a specific trait that their weapons OFTEN have (though not always). NC is higher damage per shot, VS is no bullet drop, TR has 2 with high RoF and high magazine size. VS often also get good moving CoF, while NC get good stationary CoF (though horrible moving CoF).

Not every weapon will have these traits, such as the NC having the GD-7F, which has extremely high RoF and fairly low damage per shot. However, the NC get weapons such as the SAW and AC-X11, which deal 200 max damage per shot, which no small arms weapon on the VS or TR side can do (unless you count the Lasher). Basically, NC weapons are often a damage class above similar weapons for TR and VS (such as having mostly 167 damage LMGs, while the VS and TR tend to be in the 143 damage range).

However, the NC, as other have said, actually often have the worst DPS due to extremely low RoF, "jittery" recoil (due to large amounts of recoil per shot in order to give them the same average recoil as weapons on the TR and VS end), and high CoF bloom (which necessitates shorter bursts).