Current state of the NC MAX vs. TR/VS MAX

Now, first of all, before I begin, I'd appreciate it if you all didn't immediately dismiss this just because I'm NC. If there's one thing I've learned in my time here on the forums, is that if you're NC, any opinion you have about the MAX class is immediately discredited by a large portion of the community, simply because of the fact that you're NC. Yes, the pre-nerfed Hacksaws were a bit ridiculous, but just hear me out on this one.

Also understand, that this is talking about MAX vs. MAX balance, not MAX vs. Infantry.

I used to love playing as the MAX. I dumped thousands of certs into it, and played it just as much as my two other "main" classes, LA and HA. Dual Mattocks + Slugs were very fun to use. Now, the only thing I ever use my MAX for anymore is when the battle has escalated to the point where trying to do anything at all as normal infantry results in near instant death from massive amounts of tank shell spam and bullets. In those situations, the MAX is really the only class that has a real chance of surviving a firefight, for no reason other than the fact that it doesn't die instantaneously from small arms fire. When trying to defend something like a tower against enemy zergs, the whole place becomes a slaughterhouse for the defending infantry. The MAX is literally the only thing capable of peeking its head outside the spawn shield and surviving long enough to step back inside the shield.

I never use the shotguns on my MAX anymore when enemy MAXes are present. I think it says something when shotguns lose out to weapons such as the Mercy in CQC. Emptying a full load of shells, even with extended magazines, usually isn't enough to take down an enemy MAX. I understand that the NC MAX shouldn't be capable of instagibbing enemy MAXes, but it should still outperform other MAXes in CQC. The only thing I use in those situations now is Falcons, after the huge sweeping nerfs hit every last shotgun available to the NC MAX. I regularly lose out in 1v1 MAX vs MAX fights with shotguns equipped. When using Falcons, I actually have a decent chance of winning against other MAXes. With enough practice, the Falcons can also become a half-decent AI weapon as well. In addition to this, Falcons do decent DPS to vehicles. However, the Falcons are slow, and unless you're only dealing with one infantry at a time, they're very underwhelming compared to dedicated AI weapons.

Here's an old thread of mine, that I find somewhat relevant for this:
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/a-scatmax-tries-the-mercy-yup.113394/

I still stand by everything I said in that thread. For the most part, everything that scattercannons can do can also be achieved with a weapon such as the Mercy. The NC MAX AI weaponry really doesn't hold any distinct advantageous traits to make it stand out from the VS and TR variants. The TTKs in this game are very short. Short enough that there isn't very much of a difference between the scattercannon and the mercy for the time it takes to kill an infantry soldier in CQC. Understand, I'm not saying that the NC MAX's AI weapons are unusable. They are perfectly useable. They still kill infantry just fine in CQC, as they should. However, when the enemy has their own group of MAXes, the NC MAX feels very underwhelming in CQC.

I'm not asking to restore the old power of the NC MAX, which was capable of ripping apart enemy MAXes with frightening speed. I'm asking to return the NC MAX's CQC advantage. The scattercannons should have a distinct advantage over the TR and VS MAX in CQC situations. Currently, a TR or VS MAX will have the upper hand over an NC MAX with the presence of supporting infantry.

Does anyone agree? Disagree?

NC max is still very very viable in CQC. One shot infantry kills all day every day...the nerfs only affected max vs max.

Therefore, the NC max is fine. /thread

I cannot remember when the last time I equipped a max suit for NC. As far as I can tell, NC scatMaxs are best at defending shielded rooms and spawn rooms.

Vs max r accurate
Tr max sorta acc
Nc max cant hit ****.

Lol

Oh and btw, regarding your "logic" above:

1. NC max weapons still completely destroy VS TR Max weapons in CQC. 8000DPS vs 2000DPS
2. Max + multiple infantry will always >>> solo max. what's your point? NC loves to go solo max because they were OP before and now they can't instantly kill multiple infantry + max at once? that's why you QQ?
3. Higby stated maxes are now balanced
4. LOL

I will say that running max'd out ZOE and Cosmos I can pretty much take any other MAX in a head to head fight and NC are easier than TR because all I have to do is keep at ~10-15m and pummel them with bullets while strafing back and forth. They can never get in close because ZOE and if they charge, they're now way out of position and I can just ZOE the other direction and they're still not close enough to kill me in time.

In short, I die to scat MAX's in my MAX under two circumstances in a 1v1 duel with no other factors.

1: I dun goof'd. I let him get close and he/she unloaded a full clip into my slightly more fragile ZOE'd face.

2: I round a corner with ZOE and he/she is sitting there grinning and unloads a full clip into my slightly more fragile ZOE'd face.

Other than that, 9/10 times I can just fall back and easily engage at a range that is more slanted in my favor. I do like NC max for close range vs infantry... it's fun to look at people and have them die. xD

ZOE is the reason I CAN win against an NC MAX but if you screw it up you die incredibly quickly.

BUT, I think that in an overall battle with engineers, other people shooting, etc etc it seems like the differences get slightly less impressive.

Sources, examples, stats, proof of the claim?

Because if not, kindly stop this whining. The OP atl had the decency to make a more detailed post than "Waaah NC MAX UP, waaaah".

1. DPS is irrelevant as the total combined damage of all the shells in a single magazine isn't enough to kill a MAX, considering that MAXes have 2000 HP and 80% small arms resistance.

2. This is NC MAX with supporting infantry vs. TR/VS MAX with supporting infantry. I never said it was solo MAX vs. non-solo MAX.

3. Yes, because obviously everything Higby or SOE says is the absolute truth.

MAX vs. MAX is exactly what this entire thread is about.

While NC MAX can one-shot infantry (if both barrels hit) most of the time, it takes 2 shots from each barrel, due to partial misses.

Basically, it's much easier to miss with slow-fire weapon than with fast almost-continuous fire weapon. NC MAX is less forgiving of low-skill. It has to reload much more often, giving enemy more opportunities for attack without threat

The main problem is ammo capacity for NC MAX. I do not mind the RoF or damage modifications as of combined collective of all patches. What I do not like about the NC MAX is our lack of sustained fire. And this goes for ALL NC MAX AI weapons (AV is fine with an exception for projectile speed).

The amount of ammo per Scattercannon is abysmal along with the reload time. Pellet count is too low for (should be 18 pellets, 6 per barrel) and slugs should shoot 3 slugs instead of 1.

1. Equip Ravens
2. Kick Arses and take names
3. ???
4. Profit!

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/

Stats, TTKs, DPS, and miss % for every MAX AI weapon against MAXes with videos for everything. I put hours into that crap and am not going to let something like this be talked about without it. You need facts, not opinions in balance debates.

As a NC Max user, the only problem I have with any of this is that in their current state, they're still easily the best CQC maxes (up to 10m - still not bad up to 15m). Also to do well as anti-max it takes extended mags.

The issue spouted most on the forums is lack of a better 'ranged/flexible' option. I agree - I'd love a better ranged/flexible (machine-gun type) option, but that would make us totally OP again, overall - so the shottie max weapons would also have be 'balanced down'. That, I would not like! There is no middle ground, let's face it - shotguns can not be balanced across all ranges etc.

So I guess it comes down to whether most NC Max users would prefer the usual shottie issues we have currently (i.e. cqc awesomeness, less flexibility over ranges) or a complete weapon-style change to bring them in line with other factions across the board. Personally I prefer the former (I'm happy the way we are), but clearly many would prefer the latter, including the OP?).

[edit] Btw, I love ravens for anti-max/AV, but I hate that weird 'dead-spot' where the projectiles curve outwards then back in, going around a target at approx. 10m. Is that something others experience, or just a strange occurrence for me, lol?

Thanks for that, it reinforces what I said in my OP.

I have to disagree somewhat with your first point. The NC MAX is still the best CQC MAX for taking out infantry, however not by very much. Against other MAXes, the line becomes much more blurred. In fact, the NC MAX is probably the worst MAX in CQC MAX vs. MAX battles. Even with extended magazines, you can't dish out enough damage to kill an enemy MAX before you need to reload.

Personally, I prefer Falcons in close-midrange situations. If you're decent at leading targets, it feels a lot more effective than Ravens in those ranges. At long range though, the Raven wins hands down.

In my experience, 'dead-spot' problems plague all MAXes across the board. The champion is, of course, the Pounder, but projectiles going through people without hitting them is rather common with many MAX weapons.

The NC MAX is actually just fine where it is. The ONLY thing that will keep a VS MAX alive in a fight with an NC MAX is backpeddling with ZOE. Otherwise, it WILL lose.

OP, you just need to better learn how to use your MAX. Use it for corner surprise attacks, not trying to chase something down in the open (even in Biolabs). You have shotguns which rain hell in CQC. If you want something that gives more range, then you're going to have to give up the shotguns entirely, which will make the NC MAX nothing more than a copy of the TR MAX (which was how the VS MAX was before it had ZOE, a boring copy). The NC MAX has a niche right now, at the cost of range.

Long story short, the NC MAX is quite balanced, there just aren't ANYWHERE near as many Biolab fights now as there used to be. So you don't use your MAX as often and it feels under utilized.

Wait

The OP is complaning that his AI max doesn't work well against other maxes? Don't we use AV against other maxes?

OP - if you lined up 1 TR MAX with double AI vs 1 NC MAX with double AI they would win/loose depending on the range between them. Up close the NC max win, at longer range the TR max win. Shield can be used to get up close.

btw, double MR1 FRACTURE ftw both as AI and AV

I like how you make the assumption that I used to camp Bio-Labs with my pre-nerfed NC MAX. That's a complete lie. In fact, I avoid Biolabs in general, since the gameplay there is so terrible. It's boring as hell camping doorways waiting for some fool to leave the little shield rooms, and it's also boring as hell being an attacker trapped inside those shield rooms. It's terrible.

In fact, I used to use my MAX everywhere. Literally everywhere, and it worked perfectly fine everywhere I went. Since the NC MAX nerf, I find it hard to use my MAX anywhere at all if the enemy also has MAXes present. The NC MAX crumbles quickly in the face of a TR or VS MAX, in a legitimate fight (i.e. not a canned 1v1 test) where both sides are supported by infantry. This includes CQC.

I don't need to be told to learn how to use a MAX from you, thanks.

I'm talking about AI MAX vs. AI MAX, genius. If I was talking about using AV weapons vs. other MAXes, do you really think I'd be comparing scatters to mercies? The entire point of this thread is that the NC MAX shotguns aren't very effective at taking out other MAXes in CQC. If anything, they're slightly below average compared to the TR/VS MAX, which is a bit odd considering they are shotguns and all. Up close, the NC MAX actually has a very good chance of losing, especially in a real fight, not a canned 1v1 test like you're describing. The MAX shotguns really don't hold many advantages over a weapon such as the Mercy, except for being a bit easier to get kills vs. normal infantry in CQC. Outside of that, they're very much inferior in all aspects.

I think your logic is flawed when it comes to shotguns. Shotguns fire small pellets in a cloud to make it easier to hit small moving targets, it has never been intended as an armor piercing type of weapon.

If you want armor piercing you use bullets. Oh thats like the TR max AI?

Besides in the game all you have to do is empty your NC clip, enable shield, pull back for reload and repairs and go back out. TR maxes can do what? anchor down to guarantee you a hit?

A 0.3 second TTK advantage at 0m isn't a particularly huge advantage - it is infact functionally the same TTK.