Let's Nip This In The Bud: Implants For SC Are No More P2W Than Boosts/Membership.

There is a difference in that your certs don't effectively suffer from perpetual deflation as there value grows the more are removed from the system for the sake of implants which in turn makes SC more valuable in comparison even though SC's real world dollar value is pretty much fixed at 2% annual inflation. Your certs aren't deflated by not using boosts. They don't decay. There is no threat of earning a negative amount of certs. Your certs are constant and neither appreciate nor depreciate in value.

Agreed. Do note, however, that I'm only arguing that implants are not more P2W than boosts.

You don't need numbers to do math e.g. X+Y=Z, no numbers. You do need numbers to determine the magnitude of the effect relative to boosts, but you can illustrate the relationships without the actual numbers.

If you choose to buy them, you are not at a disadvantage, and buying them with SC instead of certs is mechanically identical to boosts as far as its effect on cert gain.

If you choose not to buy them, you are at a disadvantage, but that is you choosing to voluntarily take a disadvantage in order to get a small effective increase in cert gain, you can't blame it on the system being P2W, as it is your own choice because you are just cert hungry.

Your definition of a hard counter is significantly more strenuous than I think most players would feel necessary. Would you argue that having clear vision vs. nothing gives a greater advantage against someone with flashbangs than an AA launcher vs. dumbfire gives against ESFs?

While this is true, one player choosing a disadvantage because he doesn't want to spend certs doesn't make the game P2W:

• If you choose to buy implants with certs, you are not at a disadvantage, and buying them with SC instead of certs is mechanically identical to boosts as far as its effect on cert gain.
• If you choose not to buy them, you are at a disadvantage, but that is you choosing to voluntarily take a disadvantage in order to get a small effective increase in cert gain, you can't blame it on the system being P2W, as it is your own choice because you are just cert hungry. You are basically playing on a slightly harder difficulty so that you can farm slightly more certs.

I can't even fathom how real world inflation would play in to this, or have anything to do with determining how P2W a mechanic is, so I'm not sure how to respond to you?

Implants: a direct advantage in a single combat.
Boosts: no direct advantage in a single combat.

One of these gives a distinct advantage in a single combat. One does not.

This means the person choosing to pay for them is at a distinct advantage. You said it yourself in the post I quoted. I highlighted it for you.

Note that certs are paying. Certs represent an investment of time by the player. An investment of time that they are now being taxed on simply to play at the same level as others within a fight. A tax that they can choose to pay with either more time or with dollars, but a tax nonetheless. Or they can choose not to pay, and be at a disadvantage in a single combat.

This is more P2W than boosts are. Thus your original premise (see post title) is wrong.

First off, highlighting a single section of my post doesn't make the rest of its context irrelevant, that's some ******** Fox news ********. And making it red, 72pt is right out.

Secondly, you are making the argument that the decay aspect is what makes them P2W, not the fact that you can buy them with SC. Allow me to illustrate: Let's say you can't buy them with SC, but they still decay. An Auraxium member with an xp boost gets 100% more certs than an F2Per so, even though they can only be purchased with certs, he has 100% more access to these straight upgrades than an F2Per. So, are you making the argument that it is the time-decay aspect, rather than the SC purchase aspect, that makes them P2W? Because you haven't made your argument very clear, if that is the case.

Also, with regards to your whole "tax" thing, that's completely relative. By that logic SOE also charges F2Pers a 50% "tax" on their certs for not being boosted, Auraxium subscribers, soooo, yeah, if this is a "tax", it's just tacking on another "tax" for F2Pers that's the same as the ones that already exist from boosts/membership.

Certs deflate. The value of certs increase. Certs and SC are complimentary. SC you pay with real money. Real money has been fixed at 2% annual inflation. But leaving out that last bit buying temporary implants with certs causes cert deflation which increases the value of certs. It might not be as clear as if there is less gold in the world what gold there is-is more valuable since it includes a first derivative which is the decay in certs causing deflation. The value of your certs increases if you use implants to play on a level playing field with others and you purchase those implants with certs. Since the value of your certs increases so to does SC which is complimentary and is bought with real money. But the value of SC is fixed relative to real money. I guess you can conclude from this that since the value of certs increase if you buy implants with certs you will be compelled to buy boosts to compensate and if you buy boosts you will probably buy implants with SC to because you crossed the bridge and why not? It's like gambling addiction.

You can't know whether they are more or less p2w than boosts without knowing the costs surely?

You can illustrate relationships yes, but if you're just guessing at the numbers then those illustrations are completely useless.

It's not identical, that is why there is discussion about pay to win vs pay to progress faster.

Yes, having clear vision completely negates the flashbangs right? as in they do nothing but waste the other person's resources. Both AA launchers and dumbfires have the primary effect of clearing off enemy ESFs, or if they persist, the other effect of destroying them. Put it this way, if they made an implant called 'can't lock me' which meant you could never be locked by any lock on ever (thus negating lock on launchers as completely as clear sight negates flashbangs) would you be ok with that?

Making it super-big font and red was a bit of a jerk move, yes. I'll wear that one.

Its not just the decay aspect. It is the combination of the decay aspect and there being no other way to gain the advantage listed. Simply put, someone with one is better than someone without. As outlined here:

This is the 'decay' issue right here. By having certs spent on something that goes away, you are shifting the value of certs. More importantly, you are shifting the value of boosts. The biggest shift here is it changes the way certs impact the game.

Right now, the balance is that having more certs makes you more potent on the battlefield. More certs means buying things like reload speed modifiers, or new sights, or whatever. There is no doubt that someone with more certs is more effective than someone with less. However, it doesn't matter if you get those certs in a week with paid-for boosts, or get them in a year with grinding. Someone with 10,000 certs total has the exact same potential as someone else with 10,000 certs total.

Implants changes the game from having more certs = more powerful to having more cert income = more powerful. Because they decay. The person who is pulling in more certs-per-second gets a clear advantage: they can run implants, while the other guy might not be able to. With cert income being something that clearly is modified by spending real dollars, this means it goes from the choice of pay-or-grind to the choice of pay-or-be-less-powerful.

The latter is P2W.

Do you start with the ability to gain experience and resources?

Yes, the subscription only increases the rate at which you gain.

Do we start with the innate abilities the implants give us?

No, they are a direct upgrade to the current system giving us abilities which never before existed in the game.

This is wrong, not for the fact they are rentable only, but for the sheer fact they are pure upgrades and not side grades.

It is actually more P2W than boosts and membership since it has a direct effect on combat. However, boosts and membership are not even close to being P2W anyway, and it's all pretty much negated since you can get implants with certs as well. And there's still no telling how much of an effect these implants will have on combat anyway.

can't say i agree with the OP

jesus.

remember when mmo's cost a measly $10-$15/month to get the full content?

yeah, hell, even paying 30 dollars a month would be cheaper than the current system.

I only implants that feel like P2W and OP to me are clear vision and EMP protection because they invalidate items that cost resources(concussion and EMP grenades).

lol screw those, the invisible to proxy/radar is going to be ridiculous.

Well now we do know some of that.

On the test server you can only have 1 active at a time (not all the details, but there it is)

Boosts and membership generate extra certs which can be used to buy implants, so implants in a way are a P2W upgrade for boosts and membership.

For membership, yes, that extra few certs everyday could be P2W, but it's only 36 certs, which enough for a scope. As for boosts, it is still dependent on a player's skill.

Very good point, well made.