Max Imaginatorium

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Fumblewatt, Jun 28, 2013.

  1. Fumblewatt

    It's been a month or two since the NC scatmax was brought down to auraxis from the clouds and i think the blue behemoths suffered enough, we dont want them to be an endangered species, that is only to be seen in their natural habitat bio labs.
    So i thought a thread regarding any ideas to a new gauss type weapon for them would be in order..

    NC Max:

    My thoughts on that new weapon would have to be a hard hitting, slow firing type of rifle.
    (strapping a G-SAW on each arm?)
    A carbon copy of blueshifts/mercies, would just be to bland.

    Lets not forget about the high-heel wearing steroid crabman or the titan with metal t1ts on its back.
    Since NC would get a long range weapon, the other maxes could get viable close range weapons.
    (so Higby can continue to play with his custom made tin-foil hat without getting any bias grief!)

    VS Max:
    Plasma-cutters, a melee weapon that is lethal in CQC.
    But why would one bring a knife to a gun fight?
    It could have a special ability to teleport a certain distance in the direction your facing with a charge up mechanic(Oh yes)
    Or it could deflect some of the incoming fire passively.

    TR Max:
    MOAR DAKKA and 1 more ammo clip.. no, not that again ... what about the flamethrower being TR only?

    A DoT mechanic would be awesome.



    Lets try to give the devs some ideas and suggestions towards max weaponry that is not carbon copies of each other(a shotgun shooting chain attached shotguns for long range viability? anything goes)
    • Up x 2
  2. Liewec123

    i vote NC get twin-linked gauss saws!
    [IMG]
    • Up x 2
  3. Fumblewatt

    That's too much DAKKA, TR trait AFAIK, would be cool to see if 1 customized saw on each arm would be balanced.
    Maybe strapping two carbines instead? double AC-X11? bad CoF, low mag size, high damage.. tightening down the CoF and reduce the ROF to a value beneath mercies/bshifts
  4. DashRendar

    Literally strapping two SAWs with 100 shots/mag on the Max would be a mistake, they would have to be tweaked to be more viable for Max combat. Tighter initial CoF would be a strong trait, especially since it would likely also have the NC trait of higher bloom/shot.

    Here is brainstorming some possible balance figures for the NC Max Gauss Cannons. The TR/VS values are actual game specs and are not up for debate. The NC values are experimental and are very much up for debate. This is just my take on some directions I would take them if I were in charge of the design process. I can't decide if I would make them 167 or 200 weapons, sooo I've gone and done the work for both options.

    Damage per shot:
    Mercy = 125
    Blueshift 143
    Gauss = 167 (For a logical damage increment relative to the other two factions)
    Gauss = 200 (MOAR NC MOAR POWAH WHOMP WHOMP FREEDOMMM WHOMP WHOMP)

    Rate of Fire:
    Mercy - 426
    Blueshift - 366
    Gauss 167 - 310
    Gauss 200 - 260

    Damage per second per arm: (calculated using the above RoF)
    Mercy - 887.5
    Blueshift - 872.3
    Gauss 167 - 862.8
    Gauss 200 - 866.7

    Initial Cone of Fire Standing:
    Mercy = 1.25
    Blueshift = 1.15
    Gauss = 1

    Initial Cone of Fire Moving:
    Mercy = 1.75
    Blueshift = 1.65
    Gauss = 1.5

    Cone of Fire Bloom per shot fired:
    Mercy = .05
    Blueshift = .06
    Gauss = .07 (MAAAAAYBE .08 if the arms do 200dmg, but that could easily be an excessive decision and become unusable)

    Mag capacity:
    Mercy = 50
    Blueshift = 40
    Gauss 167 = 30/35
    Gauss 200 = 25/30

    Ammo pool:
    Mercy = 350
    Blueshift = 280
    Gauss 167 = 210/245
    Gauss 200 = 175/210

    Reload times:
    Mercy = 2.6/3
    Blueshift = 2/2.7
    Gauss = 1.8/2.4

    Potential damage per reload:
    Mercy - 125 x 50 = 6250
    Blueshift - 143 x 40 = 5720
    Gauss - 167 x 30 = 5010 OR 167 x 35 = 5845
    Gauss - 200 x 25 = 5000 OR 200 x 30 = 6000

    As we can see, the lower end of the mag ranges seem a little underpowered, while the upper end seems a bit overpowered, this will easily be the hardest thing to balance for the NC Max. However, I'm thinking the higher damage per mag option than VS but still lower than TR overall could balance against ZOE quite nicely... seeing as how NC has no way of deviating from our printed DPS and ZOE kind of underhandedly gives VS the NC trait of hard hitting, so this would be a way to get that back even if they want to break dance at us.

    Either way I am expecting heavy qq pp qq from everyone if we get comparable weapons on our Max. I think most people just aren't ready for the big blue behemoth to be competitive yet. The release NC Max was ahead of its time... that was clear to all who knew him, but now he's behind the times and needs someone to tell him bell bottoms just aren't cool anymore :( Anyway this weapon design thing is fun. I hope this actually goes somewhere.
    • Up x 2
  5. DashRendar

    I like your idea for making Flamethrowers TR only! It seems like it fits their lore, and would have been used as a last resort "crowd/riot control" weapon. The reason this works is that flamethrowers make no sense for VS becuse lasers, and they would be too difficult to balance against the NC shotguns, leaving one to always be a little weaker/stronger which would cause friction between the factions to say the least. Give them only to TR and most of those little problems go away.

    However, I don't think your idea for the VS close range option is working, or at least it might be, but I'd have to hear more about it. I just don't think ditching a gun for a Halo style sword lunge is going to work for this game. It won't help the meta to develop in a meaningful way. At least I think. I haven't thought of any other options myself though, so I'll get back to you lol.
    • Up x 1
  6. DashRendar

    How about for the VS, a short ranged concentration weapon? Say something similar to a flamethrower but not clip fed, more of an energy weapon. Trades crowd control for sheer pointed DPS at point blank range. Something that could only realistically damage 1 unit at a time, but would cause collateral damage per second as long as the beams hit the target and would encourage the Max to engage at point blank range. Something like:

    750 DPS per arm per second at 1m and begins trailing off after 2.5m
    175 DPS per arm per second at 10m and the beams despawn after 15m

    No ammo restrictions, however the weapons are restricted by a heat up/cooldown mechanic that would cause DoT damage to the Max if allowed to overheat. No data assumptions on how long the heat cycle would take, that would probably need to be modeled and tested to find a good balance. The overheat DoT would be about 100 damage per arm per second for 2.5 seconds, totaling 25% HP damage to the Max if both arms were to overheat, 12.5% if only one arm would overheat.

    This is a rough sketch of the weapon I've just concocted. This type of weapon would need a ton of testing and redesign because it could easily be far OP or far UP. Don't take these numbers as final, it's the principle that counts.
    • Up x 2
  7. Falter

    Silly idea, but.. Some kind of sonic weapon for VS maxes? The longer you're in range of the beam (similar to a lasher?), the more you feel the effects of say.. a concussion grenade? Impairs movement/vision.. Instead of ammo, it's on an overheat system.
    I'm no good with stats so I won't bother trying to flesh that out.
    • Up x 2
  8. Van Dax

    Ok, I have to give you props for finding a way to give a knife a charge up mechanic.
    • Up x 3
  9. Van Dax

    I've been suggesting sonic and wave based weaponry for a while but nobody pays any attention ;.;
    Edit:[IMG]
    • Up x 3
  10. Fumblewatt

    While imho another carbon copy of the mercies/bshifts would not benefit the game or NC, what about limiting the new gauss gun by a burst-fire mechanic? where it would be excellent mid-long range, but at the same time being bad in cqc even inferior to mercies/bshifts in that range, while being just as good mid range and even better at long range.
    • Up x 1
  11. Fumblewatt

    The only problem with the flamethrower for TR imo, would be its usefulness while being locked down.
    It would be a nice weapon to push out of spawnrooms/doorways, with a reasonable low TTK even against a scatmax within 10 meters.(while NC max still get a slightly lower ttk to hold it's crown as the CQC king)
  12. MGAMIKA


    Ok with dashs stats (roughly).
    5 round burst with 0.15s delay between rounds (AKA run and it may miss) after there is a long reload (well a reload to make it ~the same DPS as other guns).

    Dashs Vanu idea rocks. (maybe a TINY bit more range).
  13. DashRendar

    Idk man, I could see a TR Max equipping one Frac and one Flame and flaming any abhorrent C4 touting light that wants to get near. One Mercy one Flame too...
  14. Fumblewatt

    As for the gauss rifle/cannon, what i had in mind is a weapon that fills the role the NC max does not currently have, a weapon that picks up a role where the mattocks with slugs begins to be useless, instead of adding more CoF and Bloom while being on the move, you could for example add convergence while you dual wield the new rifles/cannons, so there is a deadzone in CQC where only 1 rifle at a time would be able to hit, but unlike the mattocks you could still fire reliably when being on the move.

    If mercies/bshifts is duals of this:
    [IMG]

    NC max could get something like this:
    [IMG]

    And the feel of this gun would be similar to the burster.
    Lore:
    NC scientists reverse engineered a burster for AI duty
    • Up x 1
  15. Fumblewatt

    Well VS weaponry is blessed with the lore of being experimental and alien, so anything goes.
    The idea is solid, a CQC VS max weapon that that sort of lock-ons to a single target with a beam and starts to provide conc nade effects to the target and other targets in close proximity. VS max would however start to take damage when they overheat

    These 2 ideas would leave NC max using raw power in CQC against multiple opponents with its shotguns, the TR max would get the flamethrower which sort of "blinds" the opponents, provide AOE type of damage to groups. VS would get a single target CQC weapon which kills a single target and provides crowd control around that target(like people camping inside a building or room).

    All of these 3 could be used to break stalemates in biolabs/towers and help people push out of spawnrooms, reliably.

    The ends needs to justify the means!
    The idea of melee in this game could actually work, adding more defense, remove zoe's downsides while dual wielding melee, charge up to teleport into a camped room, wreak havoc with the element of surprise. However it would not promote teamplay.. and it would be too useful outside on the fields facing tanks.

    Place them in here, we can only hope that SOE pays attention. Or post it on twitter.
  16. Van Dax

  17. DashRendar

    Ahh, I see where you are going with this. Kind of like make it for all intents and purposes rail accurate, with no (or minimal) CoF, no moving penalty, and no bloom, and this is balanced by its low RoF and lack of auto-convergence so it must be manually aimed using the tracers. That's definitely a neat take on the weapon that's for sure. This type of thing would have to have a larger than normal magazine size, something like 50-100 rounds for posterity sake, with a longer reload. Would also likely need to out DPS the other Maxes AI guns by a good margin to be viable against them.

    I can't imagine many people would dual wield those though, it would likely find most use on a Hacksaw/Gauss Max... since they don't auto-converge, the practical usage for two of the arms at once is just too little. For instance, Falcons have no auto-convergence, but that's ok because you aren't meant to sustain fire with them, you aim, fire, re-aim, fire, repeat. Definitely a neat idea though. Maybe though if the arms had really little magazine sizes it would work out also. Say 5-10 shots per mag that unload fast and reload almost as fast. You could treat it like dual Falcons and aim and fire alternately. L arm firing while the R arm reloads and such. That's neat. Nonsensical a box fed HMG having 10 shots per mag lol, but it works in practice.

    Even though I decided to make them perform more like the standard AI weapons, that type of HMG gun model and sound was what I was thinking about when coming up with my take on the Gauss cannons :)


    EDIT:

    I'm actually really starting to like the idea of this gun you've created. Think something where one arm has nearly the DPS of dual wielded Mercy/Blueshift, but suffers a Pounders convergence (aka horrible until you learn it) so you would only really be able to fire one arm at a time. 50-75 ish shot mag with a 5-8 or so second reload, very punishing. That way, the technique to use them effectively would be treating them like dual Falcons as detailed above. They would be very accurate, but if you don't know how to aim them right, the accuracy is actually working against you. Noobs that try to Rambo dual wield will hit nothing and then likely die from the reload of eternitys bane. But firing one arm at a time and carefully aiming by the tracers and alternating to the other arm when that one has to reload all the while putting out a respectful DPS would be really cool.

    The other Maxes would win in sheer viable DPS at most ranges (except for the slight sweet spot where the NC Maxes guns converge, but it would be too impractical for most battles, say 80-100m or so) but the NC Max will win on the grounds of sustained fire seeing as how it can sustain that slightly lower DPS without really having to suffer a reload because he's always firing so long as he has ammo. It would also be a more skilled way of going about AI rather than point and click and hope for the best since you have to practice good technique and watch the tracers. Seems pretty NC styled to me. Oh and it would sound like a very loud and clanky turn of the century 1900s steam engine, and hit like a bull. Yepp, sounds like Murica.
  18. Fumblewatt

    The sales pitch:
    Imagine an open field battle(with that 80-100 range convergence), where a nc max positioning itself on a hill and there is alot of incoming infantry, the max would sort of work like a MG nest, giving it another practical use towards dual wielding "gauss cannons", 20 in each magazine with a healthy ammo pool, the reload time should be roughly the same as unloading a magazine, so if you want to do that heavy damage with both at the same time, you would face an awful long reload sequence(which in turn would make aegis more useful for it' s defensive values), or you could lay down some suppressive fire, only firing 1 at a time.

    And as you wrote, you could still defend yourself in cqc/mid range, but thats where mercies/blueshifts starts to outshine the gauss cannons, the ideal for this weapon would be long range, it would not step on the toes of the other weapons in the nc max arsenal and it would not step on the toes of any of the TR/VS max weaponry.
    Sure NC max would sort of be gimped at mid range altogheter through it's arsenal, but would have to use charge/aegis, teamwork to get into it's ideal positions.


    And as for the TR/VS CQC weapons, they would not get the same raw dps as the "scatmax".
    Imagine if all max's got the same weaponry across the board, i dont think anybody wants to see a ZOE max running around with shotguns and the no drop slugs.
  19. Naithe


    Fully Agree! Actually remember posting something similar, about TR being the ones to get flamethrowers, while others got their variants(well nc a mid range variant ala the mercy/blueshift).

    For VS, I'm not a fan of the plasma cutter, it would properly feel too much like a reskinned Flamethrower, and the teleport bit, I fear will either be gimicky, or abused to hell. =P

    I remember once suggesting giving VS some sort of AOE pulse weapon, that would go along the ground or similar. If anyone played mass effect 3 think shockwave for adepts/vanguards. The Idea is the Shockwave, should be able to lash around corners like the lasher can, but have more limited range.

    Since the traveling along the ground, it would mean it could be imposible to hit something above you, to compensate those in the direct line of fire, and within 5-10m would experience a TTK, only a few miliseconds longer then the .scatmax

    For nc, deffo agree, give them some mid-range options, and yeah a carbon copy would be rather bland.

    The NC are currently the faction, that repurpose, construction equipment for cobat use. Was thinking about some heavy duty, gauss bolters strapped to each arm or similar. Think of it as Fractures, but in AI format, with no Armor damage, but more effective against infantry. (not explosive, with splash mind you, but instead a big projectile, like an AP shell, imagine someone using railgun technology to launch high density contructions bolts at you...)

    Ofcourse all numbers are more there to give a sense of scale, it would all have to be adjusted based on testing. so keep that in mind before anyone says something is either useless or OP: =P

    EDIT:
    Another concept to help make up for the range restrictions of flamethrowers, and to some degree shotguns, could be, to change it so having a second arm, didn't double the total damage, but only increased it by 50%, in return, having two arms, and firing them at the same time, would increase minimum range/range by 50%, or something similar.

    Again just tossing idea's around before I forget it all again. =P
  20. Naithe

    Damn 30 min. timer, so much editing to be done, so much eye bleeding, to be stopped, apologise ahead of time!