[Suggestion] How to properly balance MAX suits

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Ruvan, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Ruvan

    MAX suits have had the nerf bat recently in the form of a more than tripling in resource cost. This is all well and good, however, this nerf fails to address the underlying problem.

    MAX units are balanced to be used as part of a team. When you view them in that context they are perfectly balanced. An Engineer has to give up his time to keep the MAX repaired. The team has lost the added offensive power that could be provided by the Engineer play in exchange for the beefiness of a MAX.

    When you view, them as individuals and not part of a team, however, MAXes are insanely overpowered. This is why all the restrictions on them are in place, to try and an opportunity cost on the team to justify the power of this one powerful unit.

    The current problem with MAX units is that they can operate too independently directly after they spawn. After spawning they have an absolute ton of (effective) HP and an absolute ton of ammunition. They don't need an Engineer or Combat Medic or whatever until they have exhausted most of their huge reserves. They might have gotten 10 kills in that time.

    Furthermore, we also have the problem that one Engineer can repair one MAX very very quickly. Meaning that as you shove more and more MAXes in to a smaller area the opportunity cost of using a MAX unit is lowered as it takes less Engineers to keep the MAXes up on average.

    My suggestions to fix these problems are as follows:
    • Make MAX units spawn at 20% health when initially equipped, just like after a revive.
    • Give MAX units significantly less ammunition by default. It should be 3 - 4 magazines maximum, not 7.
    • Using an Engineer tool on a MAX locks it to that MAX for X seconds (15 - 20 maybe). The intent here would be to make it harder for Engineers to repair lots of different MAX units in a short time, without negatively impacting the Enigineer's ability to repair a MAX he is focusing.
    • Make Nanite Auto Repair System decrease small arms resistance somewhat.
    • Also add some small arms resistance decrease to Ammunition Cannister.
    In exchange I think the following is reasonable:
    • MAX units can now instant action, squad deploy and redeploy, however they spawn at 20% health.
    • MAX units can now place beacons.
    • Travel mode added in to the game.
  2. Vanon

    Whats the point of a MAX then? take the NC MAX, 4 clips kills 2 guy's at 10 meters assuming they stand still. What about AV MAX's? 4 clips of Falcons wont take out anything. Making smaller magazines heavily favors those with the most killing potiential per clip. Then you force team play instead of encourage it. Not very smart on the design side. There are many people without outfits that would like to spawn a MAX. If you played this game you would understand that a random single player has a better chance of max punching a 10 streak then getting repaired by an engineer at the spawn. To counter your idea, why not tanks? They are team dependent. Should they spawn at 20% health? Further more there are is no xp in repairing damage that the enemy doesn't do.

    If you wanted max's like that, i would say up their health by 5x, give all max's short and long range AI, and making a small seat in the back for the engineer.... I could go for the juggernaut infantry MAX if it was something you could pull very sparsly and costed alot of certs to get working, however its unreasonable, so is your idea. People should be encouraged to specialize in something and encouraged to play the game they want to. Not forced into team play with crappy max's because you want travel mode.
  3. Pikachu

    Reduce ammo? Do you know how fast NC MAXes empty their ammo pool? :confused: In intense battles NC MAXes spend more time reloading than shooting.
    • Up x 2
  4. Purg

    Ugh, no.. seems like you want to put the final nail into the NC MAX coffin. Talk about sucking all the fun out of a class.
  5. Naithe

    Max'es are supposed to be a unit, you don't fight like other infantry, thats why they are less mobile, but tougher. Killing one with C4, or at range is fairly easy now already. And if you can't get a rocket launcher, just get an underbarrel grenade launcher.

    With the resource hit, I've honestly not seem them spammed that much. there might be a single max crash, but once they get killed they, ussually don't come back.

    So they might get 10 kills, or they might get none, but once they are done, they still won't be comming back any time soon. Especially if you also use grenades and other deployables as regular infantry.

    And the problem with engineers, is ussually sorted with the use of any kind of explosive, that can either splash the engineer, or kill the max before the engineer can do his job.

    As long as max'es aren't disposable, I'm fine with them. And why is it wrong for a max to work somewhat independently? They are still strongest with support.

    If that is not enought, simply make them unable to be spawned by AMS sunders, but instead add more terminals in bases outside spawn, which attackers can hack with infiltrators, and then spawn max's from.


    To me the "teamwork" should for a major part be in the logistics involved, and secondly for repairs etc.
    This way solo players can still enjoy them, but will require support from their faction as a whole. (hacking and transport.)

    But to get the most out of their max, they'd need a squad backing them up with engineers etc.

    Maybe its just me, but its rare that I get babysit by a engineer, outside squad mates, unless I'm the main thing holding off a choke point.
    • Up x 1
  6. basilbroketail


    Its one of the worse suggestions out there, although it isn't the worst .

    • Make MAX units spawn at 20% health when initially equipped, just like after a revive. -

      This I don't mind as much , but only because i run with a dedicated team all the time .This would however absolutely gut solo players .
    • Give MAX units significantly less ammunition by default. It should be 3 - 4 magazines maximum, not 7. --

      This would actually nerf NC maxes into the ground, they'd only have 24 bullets . 24 bullets, little or no range ? This would actually buff TR and VS maxes more ( VS the most would benefit from this since ZOE would help cut down on the # of bullets needed to kill ) since they already have large clip sizes to begin with .

      This would also render AV and AA maxes all but obsolete . 15 fracture shots ? 6 comet shells ? That isn't killing anything unless said target is a total derp . 72 burster bullets ? That isn't killing more then 2 dumb ESF's ( and your lucky to land more then 30% against half decent pilots ) . Never mind a low flying liberator that will eat up maxes. Unless you plan on vastly increasing damage to compensate .
    • Using an Engineer tool on a MAX locks it to that MAX for X seconds (15 - 20 maybe). The intent here would be to make it harder for Engineers to repair lots of different MAX units in a short time, without negatively impacting the Enigineer's ability to repair a MAX he is focusing.

      This is perhaps the worst suggestion I have seen in a while.

      1) You want to PENALIZE team work ? That doesn't help " team work " at all .
      2) Who would actually rep a max if they LOST CONTROL of their own actions for more then a few seconds even ? Your taking away player control , your also inducing a " stun" mechanic in the game which doesn't need anymore ( concussion grenades are severe enough already and they reduced " flinch locking" for a reason ) . This isn't WoW , its a FPS . Taking away player control is the worst thing a FPS can do . Imagine if Medics were " stunned" if they had to rez/ heal , that's one huge debuff .
    • Make Nanite Auto Repair System decrease small arms resistance somewhat.

      I wouldn't mind this, but then again I run with a team . This would penalize soloers abit . And frankly I do not know of any armor that players put on their class(es) that would actually have a drawback .
    • Also add some small arms resistance decrease to Ammunition Cannister.

      This is just another straight up nerf to bursters and AV maxes , not needed . Unless for whatever reason you still think Bursters are OP in their current state . I can't remember the last time I've actually been killed with a AV max , driving with a prowler/ lightning / sundy . Sure they'll do some damage, but kills ? That's usually the harasser these days , C4 , or ESF / dalton or AV turrent.
    In exchange I think the following is reasonable:
    • MAX units can now instant action, squad deploy and redeploy, however they spawn at 20% health.

      This I'm fine with , although I'd rather NOT have the max as an offensive option, I've stated in the thread before that maxes should have the option to redeploy to a base and nothing else .
    • MAX units can now place beacons.

      Can see it helping abit, but the best class to place beacons is LA . If your a squad leader you SHOULD be a LA period . They are the best class to place a beacon , next to an infiltrator with cloaked flash .
    • Travel mode added in to the game.

      Would be a decent suggestion , but depends on how the devs " fix" the current incarnation of harassers . I rarely travel outside of a sundy/harasser for that exact reason since GU11 .


    and lastly :


    " The current problem with MAX units is that they can operate too independently directly after they spawn. After spawning they have an absolute ton of (effective) HP and an absolute ton of ammunition. They don't need an Engineer or Combat Medic or whatever until they have exhausted most of their huge reserves. They might have gotten 10 kills in that time. "

    That is wrong . You want a unit that's powerful that can operate independantly after they spawn ? ESF's / lightnings period . You don't need a team, all you need is yourself and that's it . I know since i've run up 200+ kill streaks ( consistently / weekly ) with such units before without even having to rely on how well my empire was doing or squadmates, etc.

    Maxes CANONT operate fully without an engineer . Like what i've said before your only going to survive as long as you have an engineer . You can bring in videos all you want, but i'll say this much, most videos involve very , very low skill players/ players versus a decently skilled player. Almost all the max videos ( which are also heavily edited as well) i've seen, involved players who DID NOT use ( against maxes) :

    1) Rockets
    2) explosives of any type
    3) situational awareness
    4) half decent execution ( basically aiming )
    5) attacking the engineer
    6) positioning

    Its like if you were playing in the tier one level for quake live. Many of the Tier one players have some really awful positioning AND execution at the same time ( the ones shown in the videos) . If you'd try to pull the same stuff in T3 as in T1 ,you'd better have some sick execution , forget about trying the same stunts in T4 unless your godlike .

    Not to mention every other infantry class can operate independently on its own , cheaply i might add as well . 0 resource costs 0 spawn timers , no logistics issues. How about if we limit HA's to carrying 50-70 bullets ? Or lets bring back the PS1 mechanics, engineers have " ammo" to repair and cannot refil on ammo , ditto with medics with their medic gun . Or infiltrators having a " consumable" to activate their cloak or LA's needing "nanites" to use their jump pack ? Or having to spend infantry resources to switch out from an unequipped solider to any of the said classes above ( just like PS1 , minus the pea shooter that people started out with ) .
  7. basilbroketail


    Just a question Naithe , were you Recca from the beta in PS2 ? Or was that someone else ?
  8. Fumblewatt

    These are all valid ideas for organized gameplay, but SOE cannot put these into the main game since they try to reach out to alot of different players with different ideals at the same time.

    However i could see these ideas being implemented as battle island standards and part of it's rule sets.
  9. Naithe

    Someone else, part of the reason, why I needed a new name. :p
  10. Ruvan


    Options are there as part of my suggestion for people that want to play solo.

    Nanite Auto Repair and Ammunition Canister would be for solo MAXes, providing the healing to get from 20% to 100% health and sufficient ammunition to operate without an Engineer.
  11. Ruvan

    Also, regarding the ammunition pool. I was specifically thinking VS/TR AI weapons when I was writing 3 - 4 magazines.

    AI weapons should have enough ammunition for a MAX to be able to line break, running in and killing a room of infantry. However, the MAX shouldn't have enough ammunition to go without an Engineer for any great period of time.

    Anti-ground vehicle weapons should have enough ammunition to kill a couple of vehicles before reloading.

    Bursters are already fine as far as ammunition goes.
  12. TheBlueMagician

    I came in here expecting well thought out, interesting suggestions. All I got was this arbitrary list of mega-nerfs.

    Seriously, MAXs already burn through ammo fast enough, why would you even consider reducing it? It's also insanely hard to get anyone to go engineer during a zerg and heal you, unless you have a dedicated group that's coordinated.

    As for the reduction to small arms resistance, why? If you try to do your job as a MAX and take the brunt of an assault to make room for a push, you can easily get shredded by small arms.

    I mean, the thread basically boils down to you thinking the MAX is just an infantry class. If you could pull it for free with no cool down, yeah, it'd be hella OP. Seeing as it's pulling a small tank, and costs nearly as much, no duh it's overpowered 1v1, but it easily gets taken down if not supported when facing a relentless push from the enemy.

    Next you'll make a thread about how it's unfair that a tank using HEAT rounds can kill groups of infantry that don't bother with AV support.
    • Up x 1
  13. Vortok

    Sounds like you basically want a MAX to be chained at the hip to a pocket Engineer like it's a Heavy/Medic combo in TF2 and nerfed into the ground outside that combo. No thanks. TF2 heavies can still function without a Medic babysitting him and so should a MAX be able to function without a pocket Engineer.

    A MAX without Engineer support is already weaker than one with it. Without dedicated support he's likely to be running auto-repair to avoid getting whittled down, whereas the guy with Engi support will run Kinetic or Flak since he has an Engineer to heal him (at a much faster rate than auto-repair, too). So auto-repair already has a built in durability penalty when you look at a certed MAX instead of a 0 cert MAX.

    A MAX has to hipfire to kill stuff... which generally blows through far more ammo than ADSing a gun to kill someone.

    Locking the repair tool would cause two issues. One: I won't repair you, I need to be sure I can repair my friend's MAX if he gets damaged. Two: Another MAX ran in front and I tagged him briefly so I can't repair you as you retreat.... and now you're dead.
  14. Liewec123

    no...just no!
    [IMG]
    if you nerf our ammo and health in exchange for being able to deliver ourselves
    as a free kill via instant action that would be a far greater nerf than $oE have delt us so far.
    maxes need more survivability and ammo to warrant the colossal new price tag,
    not a ammo and health nerf...
    • Up x 2
  15. Regpuppy


    At this point, you'll need to put a rumble seat on the back of maxes for an engineer to babysit us 24/7 feeding us ammo and repairs. NC maxes without extended mags will feel this ammo change the hardest (total of 24 shots before needing to refill)
  16. DolanMolder

    This is actually crazy. Maxes are this good when they spawn because they cost 350 ******* recourses you idiot! lowering small arms resistance? no way José! maxes run out of ammo fast, and cannot regen their health fast enough, this is where engineers, thus teamwork, kicks in.
  17. WarWulf01

    I'll support this change on the day they make C4 spew harmless rainbows instead of death, Infiltrators glow in the dark instead of cloaking and Main Battle Tanks fire Healing Shells at the enemy. And even then I'd say it's only workable if the MAX no longer costed any resources.
  18. Quiiliitiila

    I have to agree with everyone here... This is perhaps the worst MAX suggestion I've ever seen... My Responses are in Purple
  19. Scan

    For what they are, I think MAX suits are rather balanced.... it is difficult for a single player to kill a MAX, but a handful of them, focus firing it, will get it down very quickly.

    If someone in a MAX suit, totally shreds the opposition, without having a pocket engineer, blame the guys he's shooting for not coördinating.

    Did you know one magazine of a Flash Fury, can kill one MAX if he's hit dead on?
  20. Liewec123

    guys, please don't feed the troll!