If ZOE wasn't overpowered, then please explain this

Quick question, wouldn't that scenario play out that the average K/D decreases after the Max use increases? As your average joe wouldn't match the formerly high K/Ds set by the Max nuts?

Did I say that ZOE wasn't slightly OP?

Also, pretty sure most MAX went up....

it's not really difficult for even a n00b to take a ZOE MAX and kill 3-4 guys before being brought down in a biolab fight.... that's HARDLY effective in the overall battle though.

How's this any different? I've seen entire regions filled with NC ScatMAXes since the game began.

So for the first time the VS MAX can actually match the numbers of MAX units fielded by the NC, and everyone else cries cause they aren't used to dealing with that many VS MAXes. Its not the ZOE being OP, its just the force multiplier of so many MAXes being fielded at once.

The real nerf - one that's needed - is to remove rezzing from ALL faction's MAXes.

Sorry, wasn't my intention to imply anything. Just wanted clarification. Thanks.

Where are these hordes VS ZOE MAXes everyone keeps talking about? I pull the MAX all the time and I'm lucky to see 1 or 2 VS MAXes out of every 10 allies. Half the time they aren't even using ZOE. Heck, half the time I see VS burster MAXes trying to fight infantry. I'm pretty sure the NC MAX is still pulled more. I still see lots of those, and i still try to stay far away from them, especially since the ZOE makes me squishy. I also see a ton of TR MAXES, especially in domes. If the ZOE MAX plague is happening on Connery I sure don't see it.

Maybe its those Matherson VS. Maybe they're the reason we can't have nice things. You'd think we'd be able to just steamroll any place we want, uncontested, as if there were no countermeasures to stop us. The real problem is that the TR and NC don't respect the VS MAX like they should. We've come to respect the NC MAX, and the TR MAX is no slouch either. But as soon as TR/NC infantry see a VS MAX they start licking their chops. Then they run in like morons, trying to get under our guns, only to be killed. Then they run to the forums, tears streaming from their eyes, crying "nerf!" I can't tell you how many high-level TR/NC have tried to go toe to toe with me this last few weeks. People from respected outfits too. Toe to toe! Not even trying to be clever about it. They see the purple electric pinata and think "fresh meat!" Maybe that's why our KDR jumped by almost a whole point since ZOE was release: because the TR/NC don't respect the VS MAX like they should.

I tell you this: SOE can nerf the ZOE, but you guys still won't give the proper respect to the VS MAX, continue using bad tactics, and once again cry "nerf!" on the forums when your HA can't solo a VS MAX.

Trust issues was the main reason.. Caused by Cosmos/blueshift mixup which went on for what, 5-6 months before being fixed? This built up a mentality that the VS MAX was terrible.

Incase you didn't catch it

Blueshift while having the same ingame description (this is the accurate weapon) Was the LEAST accurate of all the AI weapons, rivaling the NC grinder in inaccuracy..

Cosmos on the other hand got the accuracy intended for the blueshift..

So at first we figured 'surely they just mixed up some numbers and they'll fix this'.. Anyone asking for refunds being told 'it's wokring as intended'

Months pass and they write up a guide for MAXes to try and increase the amount of MAX players, writing up themselves: for TR/VS use the accurate weapons: Mercy or Cosmos.

At this point people felt: Okay so they're advertising the Cosmos as the accurate one, surely this means it'll stay like that and they'll change the blueshift into something else.

Instead the MAX revamp comes and everyone who bought a cosmos got royally screwed over as the blueshfit was buffed and the Cosmos got nerfed into the freaking ground (it later got buffed to it's current, bearable state)

So yeah that's why no one played a VS MAX..

Adrinex is just trying to stir a ****storm. He was doing it ealier on Miller and he's doing it here.

At the end of the day nothing beats a fracture max for being OP.

Did I kill you a few times too often? Not trying to stir up anything mate. Just trying to figure out the flaw in logic of VS players. I'm glad at least SOME Vanu players admit it's OP.

I actually may have the answer
According to Higby, the data has shown that the Vanu max HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE BEST PERFORMING max in KDR, and kills/max/hour. However, it was also the least used max. ZOE didn't break the VS max, it brought it a new fun element that made it the most used max in the game, and THEN people realized it had power. It's strength isn't as clear cut as NC's CQC obliteration or TR's high fire rates, but the VS max excels in close-mid/long range amongst other infantry, as its weapons are stronger and it has more damage without being crippled by a situational weapon type. Now people know it Not OP, it just took this long to gain its well deserved popularity.

And hence the comment, "Seems VS only use what is overpowered." And all hell broke loose, because that brought every VS's "skills" into question.

I can see where that's a problem.

VS don't use stuff unless its obviously over powered.

how exactly were vs maxes trash? they are the same exact max now..best range, slowest fire and higher damage than the TR max. you must be a terrible player to think that

No, not long range, mid only, the blueshift is not that precise.

Also, the VS MAX is more used now because of vortex, cause before, the comet was really a ****** AV weapon and no one was really using it.

It depends on how many, relative to other empires, they were to begin with. If, for example, there were 20% less MAXes before the introduction of something compared to other empires, then that would be an indicator that something was underpowered or considered to be underpowered.

Now a surge in use in anything often happens when something is new. So an immediate surge is not necessarily indicative of overpowered as opposed to new.

Sustained use often comes from success of use, certainly. That could be because of the out-of-balance nature of the weapon, or it could come from lack of adequate counters to a new form of attack, like how early German tanks weren't really that much better than the tanks they faced against, but the tactics that the forces used (or the new tactics enabled by the new units) had no effective counter at the time.

So what I'm trying to say through all this is that increased use, in a vacuum, is not necessarily an indicator of something "clearly being overpowered". Just like you making X dollars is not necessarily being "overpayed" without a comparison with how much other people make, and how much you made previously. This is a hard learned lesson, but in the end demanding context in all of your information will prevent you from being bamboozled by those that would seek to influence you.

I don't know why that player thought they were trash earlier, but they weren't that good, in my opinion, either.

My reason for believing this was the inaccuracy of their AI weapons in conjunction with the mid-range accuracy of TR MAX chainguns and the deadliness of NC close-range shotguns.

At first, the AI weapons were even less accurate. The Nebula, for example, was like firing a garden sprinkler at a target. If they were right in front of you, you might hit with 25% of the rounds. The Blueshift, the one that is supposedly the most accurate, is only slightly more accurate than that.

In the VR, if you are stationary and crouching, the Blueshift will hit with about 1 in 4 rounds at targets at the 40 meter mark. Of course, staying stationary as a MAX invites your doom, as lockdown people claim, so it isn't useful at that point. While moving you might hit with 1 in 10 shots. So it really isn't useful at targets beyond 20 meters. At 20 meters you hit fast enough to take down infantry quickly. However at 20 meters you are 10 meters away from NC scatmax murder range. 1 on 1, in many cases, if a scatmax got within 10 meters, he would kill the VS MAX while the VS MAX would perhaps do 25% damage.

The Comet, the AV weapon for the VS MAX, was very slow and slow firing. It got a buff eventually, and travelled more quickly so you could hit distant targets with decent accuracy. When they changed it to a 2 round mag, then it was actually a really good AV / AI weapon, because 1 hit would take a fully shielded infantry to 1/2 health (health, not including shields, so more than half their health + shield total) and was good against armor in terms of damage and accuracy. Unfortunately this final tweak to the Comet came at the same time as the ES MAX weapons, the fracture, raven, and vortex. The Comet is about on par with the Raven, which itself sits slightly below the Fracture in many peoples' minds (mine included). The Vortex isn't bad against vehicles. In fact it is quite good. However it is not good against infantry and is not super good at long range versus vehicle, due to the lack of optics. It doesn't have the high ROF of the Fracture or Raven to waste shots, so it's AV power at range is limited without optics. At close range it is good versus MAXes, but still can't outdo NC MAX shotguns.

So for those reasons, I largely found that VS MAXes were less useful than TR or NC MAXes because they occupied a middle ground that found them having to keep a very exact range to be useful and stay alive. A range that doesn't typically exist in great amounts in PS2. For example VS MAXes were GREAT in a particular area in the biolab, on the wide stairs that go up to cap point B rather than the SCU generator. There is a pair of doors at the base of the stairs that lead to the northern teleporter / air pad. At that range, the AI weapons could really shine.

The comet for the VS is a great weapon now. It wasn't for a long time, and most people still assume it works the way it used to. For AI weapons, though, the TR chain guns work well in close range and well in long range. VS ones just spray all over the place like bullet-laden spit take.

oh so you're facing a MAX population issue like what we were facing for the past few months ?

guess you've never seen a biolab filled with TR / NC max and all the VS could do is to pile them with waves and waves of infantries because our max sucks so bad.

You know what they say;
"VS players are funny, they don't use stuff unless it's obviously OP"
- Matt Higby

Taking a quote out of context to fit your poor argument. Sounds like a typical TR/NC player.