Go ahead and nerf ZOE to stop the whining

I will make this simple:

ZOE is not op'ed.

I have Rank 5 ZOE.

Pros: One bullet less to kill infantry or vehicles. My guess, duel wield weapon = one shot less. I
- Infantry speed movement

Cons:
1) Take more damage
2) Does not work well with KA5
3) Glowing light bulb
4) Hitting ESF from far range is a lot harder now. Like a huge blob of rainbow trying to hit a tiny dot
5) Easy to spot

Seriously speaking, here is the problem with the complaints. Number one compliant = They dodge things that should kill them or it is a lot harder to hit them!

Really? You know how many HA that can aim a rocket? Fairly rare because most just freak out and shot an all or nothing rocket blindly. What do you think your chances are for hitting a max?
They dodge c4's. It's a cat and mouse game and shotguns, totally take ZOE maxes down so fast. C4's, shoot them up and let them run into cover. Perfect time to C4.
Claymores, Bouncing Betties, yes, deals a lot of damage to ZOE maxes, it is not even funny.
Tanks, take your time to aim, read the movement. If trying to hit from long range, why?
ESF, easily can spot us. You know how many good ESF pilots I see? So rare, and most are like pinyatas of EXP. Good ones will fly high and above and rain a hailstorm of bullets. Litterally a ZOE maxes dies in 1 sec, not even time to react or from long range.
HA assaults, put on your shield and shoot them in the head.
Also, teamwork is important!

This it the problem, it is the aiming problem. I just gave some examples of spotting the difference between good players/above average players versus normal/average players. Learn from your mistakes and think about how to take out a ZOE max. Play scenarios in your head.

Here is an example which I have yet to see anyone do. Use an engineer, make sure you are using tank mines before entering a flash. Drive the flash to a sundy, place tank mines and blow sundies up. Think differently, think about something you do very radial. Always learn to overcome obstacles; instead of, whine your way to op'ed. The problem might be yours.

SOE should do what Blizzard does with SC2, listen to their Top player complaints before making changes to the game. That's all.

^This.
+1
Thumbs up

Some before and after GU09 MAX stats:

Code:

2013-05-03 - 2013-05-16
Class  Faction    Chars    Avg. time  Avg. score/hr
MAX        NC      7239      2.58      11467    (+164/-166)
MAX        TR      7234      2.73      12108    (+163/-165)
MAX        VS      7291      2.71      12125    (+160/-162)
 
2013-05-22 - 2013-05-24
Class  Faction    Chars    Avg. time  Avg. score/hr
MAX        NC      985       1.79      11350    (+372/-360)
MAX        TR      1116      1.83      13231    (+374/-364)
MAX        VS      1554      2.03      14113    (+357/-348)

Based on characters with 60+ minutes playtime as MAX.

What is this fiction about ZoE taking 20% more damage. The formula isn't ZoE takes 20% more damage. It's ZoE takes 20% more damage AFTER resists are calculated. IE at 80% resist small arms from a gun that does 100 now does 20. They take 20% more of that 20 damage. Thats 4 more damage, not 20.... per shot. Go ahead, there are plenty guns that shoot for around 100 damage, it's not hard to test out.

Look, i dont mind dieing facing a ZoE with a MAX
I dont mind dieing facing a zoe with any class
I dont mind dieing when facing a ZoE with 5 guys
Heck i dont even mind it if 1 of those guys is a MAX.
What i do mind is that all of these things are the norm. They happen the majority of the time. They happen against BR 17 guy's with default guns.

I get perception, everyone wants to play a ZoE MAX so there will be a lot of deaths by them. Thats totally fine. When your constantly facing the same guys you did a week ago, and easily killed with them having more troops, and now you have twice as many and they are completely annhilating you, then it says something is blatently overpowered.

funny. if you think about it only the NC maxes have insta kill guns.

Being a smaller target: not even going to bother because you and I both know that's a nothing statement. You honestly want to claim that you've ever chosen a heavy assault over a MAX because you wanted to be a smaller target?

More versatile weapons options: Really? How so? The MAX has a more powerful anti-infantry and anti-vehicle selection than a heavy assault and their burster is so superior it's not even funny. The fact that heavy assaults have more guns to choose from does not necessarily mean that diversity translates into an advantage if none of those individual guns can come close to performing their role as well as any of the more limited number of guns available to the MAX. They do not, because MAXes were always built to have greater firepower.

Ability to pilot vehicles: How often do you choose to pilot as a heavy assault, and why on earth would you choose it over an engineer? Plus, that's an entirely different discussion about vehicle combat that has nothing to do with this one or the power of the class sitting in the cockpit.

Ability to capture bases: Again, how would this ever influence your choice of class between a heavy assault and MAX? Other classes that will inevitably be with you can also do this, and there's no reason for you to forfeit material combat effectiveness for a role that will automatically be filled by literally any other player that isn't a MAX standing next to you.

Yes, at medium and close range, a MAX can kill better, and has better survivability, but this was always the case: Right, and it was always the case that those advantages were countered by the fact that the MAX was a lumbering target for decimators and C4 and could be handily outrun and kited by infantry. ZOE allows a MAX to retain all of its advantages while removing its major disadvantage.

Resources/timers: Resources and timers restrain your ability to employ the ZOE's distinct combat advantages as often as would be ideal, they do not do anything for your argument. The true test here would be if there were good reasons to choose a heavy assault over a MAX even if you had the necessary timer and resources.

The point is that in a game like this, there are typically disadvantages and advantages to a choice between any two options. In a situation where you have the chance to take a ZOE and the chance to take an HA, you have to make a torturous argument like the one you've presented to justify taking the HA (and really, you're only making it to defend ZOE.)

You're deliberately missing the point. The argument I was making is that the role of the Heavy Assault is performed better in almost all situations by a ZOE MAX. Of course that's not true 100% of the time, but it is true the vast majority of the time. In the traditional role structure, MAXes are not ideal for a much wider range of situations because of their low mobility. I think you probably know that's what I was talking about, but needed to misinterpret it in order to find a way to justify the HA.

The role of the Heavy Assault is to deliver high mobility and high damage against vehicles and infantry but that role is usually performed better by a ZOE MAX. If the only reasons for rolling a HA over a MAX is to be able to flip points and pilot vehicles, my point is made.

They're f-ing SHOTGUNS. What part of them being SHOTGUNS surprised you about how they work?
Now we've got ZOE Blueshift MAXs that can out TTK any NC MAX at 5 meters, not to mention the shots missed by ADADADing and the long reload times, but then the Blueshifts are also the most accurate AI MAX weapons in the game and they can do the EXACT SAME DAMAGE at maximum render range. Let's also mention that a ZOE MAX can backup as fast as a NC MAX can move forward.
How good are the NC "insta kill guns" then?

you obviously don't know what TTK means. Care to be enlightened?

*Le flying my Reaver*

*Fire on a Mossie/Scythe that then tries to fly away in a straight line.*



*Killspam shows Heavy Assault Pilot*

"Ahh..."

Absolutely.
However, I'd advise you to use real world numbers. None of this "ideal" TTK bull$hit.
We're talking shotguns. By definition and execution all pellets won't hit the same target.

Four or five weapons, not two. The ability to chose a lasher, homing missile launcher, or C4, of which there are no equivalents on the VS Max.

Ability to fit in and pilot vehicles as the need arises is a big advantage all classes except MAXes have.

I almost always pilot as heavy assault because all of my vehicles have auto-repair systems that fix themselves faster than I could as an engineer.

I'm usually alone. I am not part of an outfit, and don't often join squads/platoons.

Timer and resources are a distinct disadvantage of the MAX, and that is the whole argument.

I always have the resources (well except when I'm effectively trapped in a spawn and decide to throw 50 or 60 grenades out the window before I redeploy), and I'm rarely killed faster as a MAX than my respawn timer 10 allows me to purchase them.

I still find reasons to take the other classes from time to time. Heavy assault if I need to use a tank or cap a base, infiltrator if I want to hack ****, light assault to pilot a plane (cause I'm too cheap to buy an ejection seat), engineer if it's best that I use turrets, etc.

I'm pointing out that virtually every one of your arguments applied before ZOE even existed.

In my view this has always been the case. 73% of the 270 hours I've played VS so far, I'm in a MAX, most of that was well before ZOE, and I don't take MAX more often now than I did last month, because VS MAXes aren't any better than they were last month.

They are different, and this seems to throw off those people who cannot learn.

The heavy assault's abilities justify themselves.

To hell with the tradition role structure; I do what works for me, and this is highly atypical to most people. If certain "roles" are no longer working the way you like them, change the way you play.

The role of my heavy assault is to race around in my lightning and blow the snot out of people, bail out at the last moment to put a rocket in the side of the tank that is about to destroy me, finish it off, kill the pilot who also had the foresight to bail (and is probably an engineer, and thus at a disadvantage), then cap the base or substation so I can buy a MAX. And, again, I was doing this well before ZOE.

Tip: Everything when massed is OP

A squad of Lancers decimates tank zergs
A squad of Strikers decimates both air and tank zergs
A squad of Bursters decimates air
A group of Scatmaxes can completely dominate a Bio Lab

You get the idea, VS MAX are being used MUCH more than before (at least twice the numbers), and since they're actually useful now, you can expect to be killed at least 3 times more often by them, it's a matter of perception mostly, the only nerf I think it needs is the strafing speed, and maybe the speed when going backwards, nothing else (and I would make a slight nerf, not something big, like a middle point between the ZOE actual numbers and the non-ZOE numbers for both strafing and backing speeds).

Pendragon thinks ZOE is a horrible mistake, but hadn't made the comments you quoted.

ZOE Max is completely fine. People are just using it as an excuse to now complain about the buffed TR/VS MAX AI rates of fire and accuracy.

If you took away ZOE right now, people would still be calling our MAX overpowered because they've suddenly paid more attention to the Blueshift, Nebula and Quasar all being ******* awesome since SOE buffed the rates of fire and accuracy. ZOE does not affect these weapons in any major way, the damage buff from ZOE is very minor.

If a ZOE MAX kicked the crap out of your scatmax, it would have done it anyway with or without ZOE, the VS and TR AI weapons are just really good now and it has little to do with GU9. I think part of the reason the NC got the shield for their MAX is to be able to do something against ranged TR/VS MAX fire. I think the shield needs a buff, but ZOE is not OP and should not be nerfed. ZOE actually gave us a real part of our intended faction trait, it is making our MAX enjoyable for the first time ever. I don't feel so much like a watered down TR faction now, I feel like I have a cool ability that is in-line with the philosophy of technology and mobility.

So, what I hear you saying, is that the same number of people would be using MAXs if they were getting pwned all the time as would use them if they are OP?
Hmmmm.
Not sure if I agree with you there. Nope.

Edit:
My case was made in the comment above:

It seems pretty obvious to me that the VS "enjoy" their MAX a little more now than prior to the patch. Or maybe it's the NC and TR that like their MAX less? Doesn't matter to me how you phrase it.

That's kind of the point.

"NO MAKE ZOE SLOWER THAN NORMAL"

Said no one ever.

I've always liked the VS MAX. I was/am able to put the fact that it is small (I don't use armor kits), relative to other MAXes, and is very hard to see at night to very good use before/if I omit ZOE.

Anyway, people aren't using it any more now because it's better (this is a highly subjective thing), but simply because it's new. No matter how bad the ability is, assloads of people are going to use it early on, just because it's novel.

In a few weeks, those whose play-style favors ZOE will continue to use it, the rest of MAX users will go back to Charge, and the majority will go back to playing whatever they played most often before.

Yeah, I botched my quotes; should be fixed now.

This is rich. The only place you'd see an NC max pre nerf was in CQB. That was OP and had to be nerfed. VS max is EVERYWHERE and wiping the floor with infantry but is working as intended. If NC max was OP then VS max is so OP it's a joke. Rock it while you can spandex clowns, your nerf is coming.

You're absolutely right, all of those things did apply before ZOE. The whole problem with this ability is that it throws in infantry-level mobility onto a MAX, which moves it out of its traditional role and into the heavy's role with significant advantages over it in almost every area. I'm not sure why you felt the need to point out most of those things already existed, the point is that adding ZOE to them throws them out of balance.

Also, since when can a VS heavy equip a homing missile launcher?

Well, I've always used the MAX as most people use a heavy.

Charge already gave good mobility when mobility was really needed (mainly dodging C4, sprinting to cover when crossing open areas, or getting directly under an ESF trying to pod you), and did so without cutting armor, or attracting a lot of extra attention. You simply had to be careful not to waste it...which is really not much different from being careful not to turn ZOE on in certain situations.

I maintain that ZOE is only decisively better than Charge at medium range, in well lit areas.

I was referring to the Nemesis.