Scat/HackMAX balance suggestion - from an NC player

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Phaze, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. x13eastmodex

    You got it all wrong. They will nerf NC max the same time they BUFF the other 2 factions maxes and at the same time break your maxes with a "bug" just like they did to our mags. And I will laugh at all the nc who came into mag threads begging for a nerf when they cry about it. Don't worry your time is coming.
  2. Phebus

    Disagree with this comment. It's not the NC saws on the maxes that are solely responsible for this balance issue it's a combination of the saws and sprint. Max V max fight should last longer than 1 clip of Max shotgun shells therefore the guns need either damage reduction OR fire rate reduction of maybe a bit of both to balance ammo. Either way the NC Ai is too powerful against the other two empire maxes.
  3. Phebus

    There is no 'long range head popper' max. VS max isn't accurate enough and therefore doesn't have a 'long range' or even a reliable medium range' on any of the Ai variants.

    VS should have got lasers rather than inaccurate and underpowered electric mini-guns, loads of the VS builds and 'fixes' feel so half-hearted but after playing all empires NC have hard hitting accurate weapons, TR have massive ammo clips and accurate weapons and the VS have accurate weapons and nothing else going for them.

    TR MBT has speed and firepower, NC MBT has toughness and firepower and the VS MBT has firepower and supposedly maneuverability to incorporate the use of the front fixed cannon, however, even my lightnings and sunderers climb steeper hills with less combat chassis certs OR speed chassis certs. Sort out out devs or the VS will be unable to sustain any sort of challenging population, when you nerfed us and buffed wvwr other nation in 1 way or another half the players went off and joined the TR.
  4. Devrailis

    I'm not sure why people constantly fail to read the entirety of a post before replying. Buffing the small arms resistance will prevent the instagib ttk issue people have with NC MAX vs MAX combat. This is the first step that should be taken.
  5. Ekdal

    They should cut the damage of the NC MAX shotguns in half. Sorry but these things are just straight broken.

    You turn a corner and an NC max is there: BOOM insta-dead. There isn't a lawyer on this planet that can argue a reasonable defense for that.

    The max redesign is coming in a month and they can revisit the issue then, but in the short term they need to fix these weapons as they are breaking the game.
  6. Phebus

    Read your damage mitigation post, doesn't make sense. The NC Ai max will still be a LOT more powerful than their other 2 ai variant empire maxes.

    Buffing everyone's Ai resistance wouldn't make NC ai maxxes any less powerful against other maxxes and therefore imbalanced it would just be a slightly longer fight, I went up against a Saw max today with dual nebulas ( fastest and therefore most damaging VS AI load-out) I started shooting first I died within however many shots of dual saws, he was pointvery close range because he charged me so none of my shots missed, on my death he had killed me 100 percent alone, I had knocked down 25 percent of hos total armor. Your suggestion does not balance the NC saw maxxes in any way and giving damage mitigation across the board will not assist this in any way. Until a balanceoccurs then NC ai maxxes are overpowered.

    Why is it that the number one method for someone who doesn't like a reply has to question someone else's ability to read a post therefore making it personal rather than objective? It wasn't an attack I just want a game that is fun for everyone and disagreed wwith your flawed theory of rectification.
  7. PaladinZERO

    The problem is they insta-gib other maxes, even an AV MAX which should win vs an AI MAX.
  8. PaladinZERO

    Yup, I had an AV MAX out in the open and the ScatMAX just charged me. To bad from him I was also surrounded by HA and we were able to drop him before he could fire, but 1-1 he most likely would have won.
  9. Devrailis

    The main issue that TR and VS MAXes face against NC MAXes is that they have no time to react. The TTK that a dual-scatcannon MAX has against TR/VS MAXes is too short. No AI MAX should be instagibbing another MAX. That is still the main issue.

    I've already hammered out repeatedly that both TR and VS MAXes need buffs as well, in DPS potential and additional utility abilities, in conjunction to the damage mitigation, which again, needs to be the first thing that changes for the MAX. MY proposal (which is also the proposal given by many experienced MAX players across factions) makes the most sense for balancing MAXes.

    Also understand that TR and VS MAXes should still not be able to beat an NC MAX at point blank ranges. If they are able to do so, while also maintaining superior damage potential at mid-range, you've simply shifted the imbalance from one faction to another. Again, and I am seriously losing patience at having to emphasize this repeatedly, the main problem is that TR and VS MAXes have next to no opportunity to react to a point-blank NC ScatMAX with the current imbalance, hence the constant emphasis on increasing damage mitigation against AI weapons. If you give TR and VS MAXes time to react, they have the opportunity to shift to more favourable positions which allows for skill based reactions rather than the current "round the corner = dead" situation.

    I've gone into deeper detail multiple times in other posts and have no intention of having to do so again in this thread as well, just realize that I am on your side in terms of the current balance equation but I do NOT support solutions which I feel either miss the point, are flawed or self-serving.
  10. SKYHEX

    That is exactly why I am suggesting the reduction of CoF + bloom, to MAKE the AI weapons accurate as hell.

    And honestly, I don't mind if hackymaxes can dominate infantry so up close as long as we get actualy USEFUL AV MAX weaponry that can actualy damage tanks and will make maxes into bloody smears on the walls.

    The approach here should not be to have 2 equal AI maxes - aka homogenization that is VERY boring - bur rather have an aswer to them.

    "Oh, you are farming my infantry? How cute."

    *equips kinetic armor + dual AV (AV that is actualy GOOD I repeat, not the peashooter we have now)*

    BOOM BOOM

    "Sayonara, shmuck."

    AI MAXes should brown their pants at the sight of an AV max, so should tanks in close-medium range. Perhaps the similar variants of AP and HE? Scratch that, giving SOE milking ideas is bad. Just make the ones we have now better.
  11. Phebus

    So if you increase everyone resistance to ai how does the amount of damage of a max change? It doesn't, you'd have to double the ai resistance just to survive an NC ai max attack in another max unit point blank which is indoors where most ai maxxes are used. Increase in accuracy wont do anything for the other 2 against an Ai NC max at close range. All upping the resistance does is make ammo more difficult to manage, it does not address that stupid sill scatmax being overpowered.
  12. Phebus

    Yeah but as most players on this post know and a few have stated, the maxxes are pulled for indoors, increased accuracy won't do anything to reduce the overpowered scatmax. They need balancing otherwise youll get nerfed we'll get buffed and the game will be even more broken.
  13. drNovikov

    To balance scatmaxes we need to give NC high RoF high accuracy low recoil guns + strafing tank with a sniper AT gun on top of it. Then scatmaxes will be balanced.
  14. Lessmessino

    TR MAXis useless, his AI weapons stops working many times at f***** close range
    and yea keep nerf scatterguns
  15. Dreadnaught Wrex

    they do the same damage as the mini gatling gun with about half the RPM.
  16. Ghodere

    The problem isn't that NC MAXes win at close range; this is as it should be. The problem is the <1sec TTK that NC MAXes have against other MAXes, giving TR/VS MAXes no time to even turn around and charge away. The fact that ScatMAXes perform the only job any MAX does better than infantry is a problem, yes, but not nearly as big a problem as the miniscule TTK.
    • Up x 1
  17. Devrailis


    This is what I've been trying to explain to him.

    The solution is two-tiered because TR and VS have two issues right now. The first is that they die too quickly to NC AI MAXes, and the second is that in general, TR and VS MAXes are underwhelming. Skilled MAX players who cert out their TR and VS MAXes still do VERY well, but overall TR and VS MAXes can still use a buff to bring them a little more in line with NC MAXes.

    In a little more detail, even though I said I wouldn't:

    Problem 1: TTK of NC MAX vs TR/VS MAXes

    Solution: Buff the AI resistance of all MAXes so that the TTK of NC MAXes against TR and VS MAXes is increased, this allows TR and VS MAXes to actually react. That and it just seems absurd that given the roles MAXes are supposed to play, that TR and VS MAXes currently have no recourse if they run into NC MAXes at point blank. I understand this isn't always preventable, I've bumped into plenty of TR and VS MAXes completely unexpectedly. It ALWAYS turns out to be a free kill for me as there is simply nothing they can do. Against infantry? Too bad - No big deal. Against other MAXes? Come on, throw them a bone.

    Problem 2: TR and VS MAXes seem very underwhelming unless certed into

    Solution: This isn't actually a problem in and of itself. There's nothing wrong with having to develop into a class a little to increase its effectiveness. The problem is that stock TR and VS MAXes are actually pretty terrible given their resource cost and the length of their default timer compared to the NC MAX. Anything they can do, the base infantry classes can do better.

    Kill armour? Grab a heavy, or use an engie, or C4 with an LA. Comets and Pounders are pretty worthless compared to all the other options infantry have. Kill infantry? Again, grab a heavy, or get an LA and find a good vantage point. Again, this doesn't apply to players who've certed heavily into MAXes and are skilled in their use, but overall both TR and VS could still use a slight tweak to improve their performance.



    Like I've said before, increase the RoF of TR weapons so that they're proper mini-guns, at least make them a lot closer to proper mini-guns than they are now, and buff their magazine size. Tighten the spread on VS weapons so that they're more accurate and lower their reload times so their weapons actually resemble, you know, VS weapons instead of purple wannabe TR booger launchers.

    The only niche that TR and VS MAXes can fill that other infantry can't is their ability to storm a strongpoint. Except unlike NC MAXes, their damage output isn't high enough to shock players off a position the way NC MAXes can. That's not necessarily a bad thing (I would like to see NC remain better at it than TR and VS) but currently their ability to push is too low. Often when I see TR and VS MAXes succeed at a push, it's only because of their raw numbers and nothing would have stopped a similar group of heavies and liberal use of grenades from accomplishing a similar objective.

    And god help any of those MAXes if a small group of NC MAXes are waiting for them.
    • Up x 1
  18. MaxDamage

    Wrong.
    Try again.

    I've said this once and I'll repeat it a thousand times if need be..
    TR and VS MAXes do not need a buff (outside of empire specific abilities), the NC MAX needs cutting down. The OP is in the right direction.. but really the problem is NC AI MAX being an anti-MAX MAX, a class of its own.
    Unacceptable.

    I don't give a crap if the devs brush me and the others off now, sooner or later they will ******* listen if they want to get paid.

    In Planetside 1, NC AI MAXes were likely to beat TR AI MAXes in close range fairly easily but the TTKs were longer, and the damage from AI MAX to AI MAX was so weak overall that it wasn't worth the ammo.
    AV MAXes were for killing other MAXes.

    This is the way it needs to be.
    A dual AV MAX should beat a scat max at close to mid range in MOST encounters (aside from self splash damage at ultra close proximity).

    Just try it, just load up pounders and face off against an NC MAX at any range within an outpost.
    I wouldn't be surprised if pounders were broken, the accurate shots I land on regular infantry rarely or barely register - and the splash damage? Can we have some?

    NC AI and AV weapons are superior in the majority of situations that it matters, to the point of being broken.

    This video doesn't look like much OPness, as it performs well at the same ideal distance the TR Mercys do. But take into account their massive "BANG BANG ENEMY MAX IS DEAD INSTANTLY" bonus and yes this crap is damned OP.
    The myth of NC MAXes inability at range is a tired and overused one.. and just that, a myth.

  19. Matthew Clark

    Develrailis is right for MAX balance. Some delicate nerfs and buffs all around would make things more balanced. NC MAX shouldn't win as quickly/easily in close quarters, while the other classes MAXs need a pretty serious series of upgrades (some of which, like AV guns, the NC should get too). The TTK would be the biggest concern for me. Going from under a second TTK to closer to 5 would feel better with my dual Grinders. Its boring to just slam enemy MAXs into the ground without having to worry.

    Most of the issue would be solved simply by giving the enemy time to back the hell up and come back with 1-2 of his brother MAXs reversing the situation. The rest would simply be giving the other factions guns that could actually make me worry. I'm not saying everything should be the same with different names, but it will be nice for MAX designs to get fleshed out and each faction get a MAX that represents them and their playstyle suitably.

    The only thing that should even feel really similar should be the AV/AA roles, since same gun cross faction for AA, and AV role is meant to have high explosive damage meant to kill MBTs and Galaxies if you're a fair shot. However, I think that designing the MAXs like the tanks would be a bad way to go. They haven't announced VS yet, but TR and NC new abilities are exactly the same as their faction's tank. While I like continuity and staying on theme as much as the next guy, variety would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps maybe a short damage boost for the NC MAX (after balancing), a short RoF boost for TR, and a short accuracy boost for VS? Seems a bit bland, but it keeps up faction's strengths and offers an interesting counter choice to charge.
  20. Phebus

    I agree that maxxes should be more resistant to to small arms fire and am not disputing this, I also feel that they should be given armour status again and a run mode as in PS because we now have the decimator to counter them axes are not threatening enough for their ability to absorb damage at the moment but if you re-refer to my post, increasing the damage of the TR max and just tightening the COF of the VS will put the VS as at massive disadvantage. As I already said I have gone toe to toe with an NC scat max and I have done a quarter of the damage to them in comparison to being dead 100 % from them with the most damaging VS max ai weapons even when I get the drop on them and don't miss a shot.

    People stating the VS max are 'headpoppers' and assume that they just need an accuracy buff obviously don't play VSmax or don't have understanding of Max limitations and dependence on other units. Why would you pull a super accurate but weak damage Max outside if you couldn't rearm or have a method of travel allowing you to rearm? Similarly why would you pull a max that has no chance of killing another max indoors? Surely a Max should be a direct counter for another max? or are players just expecting that they can have an super powerful platform indoors that can't be countered.

    The VS max has a huge miss rate beyond close range and misses with the greater proportion of medium range shots, imagine equipping 2 un-upgraded SMG's and you get the idea, now try kill a scat max with this. VS ai Max do not only need an accuracy increase but also needs a damage increase. If I can get killed in 1-2 seconds and barely do any damage to a max toe to toe in a max suit myself then accuracy is not going to increase my survivability as I am not missing. In the past game this was offset by making the max an armored unit so that comets would be the max killers but this is no longer the case as comets are single shot then reload and maxxes do not have the properties of armor. Either way there is no real way to counter a NC scat max by any VS ai max as both accuracy of VS maxxes AND damage are an issue.

    Your suggestion is flawed for the VS max and NC max but is correct for the TR max and I agree with your increased small arms fire resistance but only for the max units, this is just for the record in case someone reads your post and makes the changes without considering the strengths and weaknesses of ALL of the ai maxxes in the game.

    No max should be able to out damage another empire ai max by 75% at any range as the scat max currently does. Scat max at present is a major threat for all infantry and max units, TR chain-guns less so but still a threat, VS ai maxxes are only currently useful for infantry. If you don't believe me then please do what I have done and test them all out yourself.