I don't see how VS guns are OP: Stats inside

this guy has obviously never touched a gauss saw.

I figured troll there is no way anyone can be that stupid.

I, too, feel my Vanilla Bean ice cream is almost the same as TR's French Vanilla and NC's Vanilla.

The differences between weapon analogues are near-microscopic, and are vastly overshadowed by intangibles, such as net latency and human reaction times.

I did say "most players" quite specifically to refer to people of average skill, I get kills within 15 rounds but not reliably enough to avoid reloading, TR doesn't require a reload though as often I'll still have 20-25 rounds in a clip after a kill. I rarely see average VS or NC infantry get two kills in a clip, this isn't incredibly uncommon for TR though. If we're balancing for highly skilled players the advantage is little, if we're balancing for the 90% population of average players this is massive. For the unskilled players it's +10 rounds to spray with, for the average it's an extra kill without a reload.

Also, the whole point of LA seems to be choosing your fights and getting into unexpected positions, you can more than safely engage two enemies so long as one isn't looking at you. Having 20 rounds to spray at each enemy is a lot less risky than only having 15 per. Anyhow, as you said the reload comes into play more as an engineer, but if I know ill be in a risky position I'll place a mine for anyone that tries to surprise me, and I'll often retreat a bit to reposition as I reload, I don't recall people jumping me as I reloaded to ever be a problem.

We might just be opposites, I got a lot more kills as TR without a need to reload while finding the recoil and accuracy to be nearly identical. I'd personally take the higher ammo cache and clip.

To the person complaining about the TRAC-5S, all the S/SF variants suck compared to the guns they're based on. You're giving up an effective gun to get the underbarrel attachment.

The bigger ammo pool is a consequence of the bigger clip. Everyone gets 5 clips, which means VS/NC get 150 total and TR gets 200 total. The bigger ammo pool goes hand in hand with the bigger clip and is part of the TR advantage; you don't get one without the other (unless you cert the ammo belt). This also has synergy with the high RoF.

Because 1v1 performance means absolutely everything, right?

I mean, I could give you a gun that kills the closest opponent to you visible on your screen, but only has a single shot and a reload time of five minutes. Congrats, I just gave you the most OP 1v1 gun in the game. I also just gave you what is probably the overall worst gun in the game (Unless you're an infiltrator, maybe....)

This must be a joke. Really hope it is or that is just sad lies to protect his factions advantage.

Well but having more bullets total is always good. Higher magazine size = longer reload times, which is not always good. Ideally I'd like TR total ammo capacities with VS speed reloads. I find 30 bullets is usually enough for what I'm trying to do. But I often run out of ammo when I get into a good position

The fact the VS pistol is pretty darn bad only exacerbates the issue.

Ha ha ha ya right keep telling yourself that. It is a matter of how often your strengths and weaknesses come into play. Mag capacity is your ONE real weakness. Telling people that have played all three sides and can clearly see your advantages outweigh your weaknesses by a fair margin they are wrong? Sorry you fail in trying to trivialize the small differences in your little analogy.
When ttk is 1.7 sec small differences are everything. Player skill is there to allow you overcome those differences but doesn't make them go away.

One can not compare LMG's. Across all factions, there's a counter part to another empire's in one way or another, except in the case of the NC's Gauss SAW. The guns, believe it or not, are actually balanced around all stats: even the number of rounds. Overall, because of the TR's 10 extra rounds, their weapons tend to suffer elsewhere because of it. RoF has nothing to do with it: ALL empires have weapons that push into the 800 and 845 RPM range, sans the LMG's (they top out at 750.) There goes the TR's supposed advantage, so all we're left with is 10 extra rounds.

Now let's tool around with some filtering and a little organizing!

Rifle recoil, from least to greatest!

Now wait... the highest RoF rifle the VS have access to has only a recoil factor of .2? Their CME is the same way, but it has 652 RPM. One might scoff, but in both cases, that is a very easy to manage gun. Ridiculously so. .2 Is miniscule, and on a 652 weapon, no excuse for missing a shot, ever.

The default cycler is .27 versus the pulsar's .22 and lower RPM. Remember, lower RPM works in conjunction with lower recoil values to produce a more accurate fire arm, refer to an earlier post regarding synergy in this very thread. .2 on an 800 RPM (H-V45) is $#!% easy to manage, compared to the TR's .27 on 800 RPM with their TAR. The .25 on the TRV's 845 RPM is like a necessary compensation for how wild that thing will handle even with a burst of fire.

Here's a greater mind-****.

See it yet, besides the VS having accuracy dominance with carbines?

Let me cut the fat a bit.

The rate of fire empire doesn't even get the highest RoF carbine... let alone with the accuracy of the Serpent. Further, the Lynx and the VX6-7 are essentially the same carbine sans the ammo count but here's a good question to ask: Why would you EVER pick the VX6-7 over the Serpent? BTW, regarding 800 RPM weaponry... TR lose again. I tell ya, those ten extra bullets really are worth all the trouble...

Now let me show you something really special.

The VS' Serpent carbine outperforms the TR's TRV rifle in just about every category but one: bullet velocity. In general, carbines are supposed to have higher recoil values than assault rifles... so why are the VS carbines performing nearly as well as their own assault rifles, and leaving the other empire's rifles in the dust?

A higher firing rate, damage, or ammo capacity... none of this matters if the one, crucial aspect of the gun is sub-par: and that is it's accuracy. If a bullet misses, it's a wasted bullet and it does no damage. Lower recoil values make a weapon easier to handle. Easier to handle weapons are more likely to land shots before CoF bloom is spread too wide. This is the key problem NC are having, and many TR in the know recognize. Arguably, our ten extra rounds are compensating for any wide rounds, but only an ignorant can deny that the TR only have exclusive access to higher RoF weaponry. TR do not, as the charts show.

VS simply have it TOO easy in comparison to the NC and the TR, but despite my focus material, especially in comparison to the NC. I'm having a hard time believing SOE's data sheets aren't showing some kind of discrepancy leaning towards the VS trooper: Either increase the recoil values of the VS weaponry, since the lack of ammo should be compensated with the short reload times (RIGHT!?) or alternatively, knock the TR weaponry down to 125 max damage, reduce their recoil to the same levels the VS enjoy, if not lower, and amp up the average Cycler's RoF by at least 50 across the board to compensate for the damage loss. NC could also enjoy a .2 or .3 decrease to recoil across the board as well, maybe more, just to remain competitive.

What the TR have now are nerfed VS guns with 10 extra rounds to compensate. Whoop-dee-****in'-doo...

As someone who plays all three factions, has played all three factions. and has continuously performed at about the same level on all three, I can confidently say that I do not feel I am wrong.

Again, with a TTK of 1.7 seconds, the .5 second average human reaction time, combined with anywhere from .1 to .8 seconds (easily) of two-direction net latency VASTLY overshadows any differences in the weapons.

You're arguing that one race car's paint color makes it go faster, and is therefore clearly better.

If you know how to maneuver on the battlefield you will fight one or two people at once, you wont stand there in the open while everyone shoot at you lol

So you are saying that because we deal with latency and reaction time that weapon stats do not matter? Ignored.

One final bit of advice if you are going to keep pulling random cliche analogies out of a hat make sure to see if they at least fit the situation in some small trivial manner. What you are doing is akin to some idiot pulling "big words" from a dictionary then trying to make them fit in a conversation where they have no place. If you are trying to make yourself seem clever I can tell you it is having the opposite effect.

You wound me terribly with your ignore. I am cut to the core.

I'm saying that this lot would argue that one faction's weapons were better if they were complete mirrors with differing sound effects attached.

Quibbling over the incredibly minor differences in the infantry weaponry in this game is outright silly, as the situations where they come into play, and are not completely overshadowed by other circumstances are virtually nil. And it's doubly silly, given the numerous-and-increasing sidegrade options that blur the lines even further.

But, whatever you lot have to tell yourselves to get to sleep at night, I guess.

Coming from a BAID member it all makes sense now you guys are hilariously bad.

I was actually surprised to see someone talking sense, but you had to go and ruin it with your last line lol.

I would argue that comparing starting weapons of any kind is an important component, since that's what most nonpaying players will have, but you are correct about the LMG's.

However, there is a single flaw I find with your argument: Your statement of "The TR advantage of RoF is non-existant" is NOT a statement of Vanu OP-ness. In actuality, it's a statement of TR UP-ness, since even the NC have guns with the same RoF.

You've also focused only on the Carbines, which are only ONE class of weapon. Granted, it's the most common one, and I'm not going to do do math myself (I also don't think this degrades your argument any) but I feel like a full comparison is ultimately needed here.

But anyways, back to the point. Without throwing out any more arguments, lets just take what we have now as true with no rebuttal. The result of this argument is NOT that the Vanu are OP.... but instead that the other two factions are UP. There IS a distinction here, mainly in that we actually HAVE our intended empire advantage unique to ourselves. NC damage is largely matchable by some other gun in another faction, as is TR fire rate and even clip size sometimes (Reload times make things messy, but again, not introducing any other arguements)

So basically, based on this, Vanu feel OP because the other two empires are effectively having their advantages negated in some way by the other two (Aside from pistols). This is not a problem with the Vanu, as the empires are intended to have their own unique advantage, but, rather, it is a problem with the other two empires, as they effectively do not have theirs based on the argument you have presented. (And it is a pretty good argument)

EDIT: I will point out that mag size and fire rate DO matter. if gun B is only half as accurate as gun A, gun B can still perform the same on average if it fires twice as many bullets in the same timeframe as gun A

I guess for me it all comes down to the fact that I want ONE NC lmg that is a viable run n gun weapon. Give us ONE lmg that has the dps and 10m ttk of the other factions matched. The SAW can be a good gun when kitted out for long range but then that is all it is good for. The other faction lmg do not give up everything to be good at ONE thing.

GUYS, GUys, guys, lets not fight over who has the bigger carbine. Lets complain about magriders again. Ok guys, good talk

In theory. In practice, that only really works if half the rounds go where they're supposed to. Better accuracy > all else, and VS have it. TR don't have their unique dogma, and the NC's - according to the average NC dog anyway - dogma is completely negated by the fact that their weapons apparently face the sky after a single shot (seriously? Love me stock SAW!)

Also, I did compare rifles... first link. Then I went on to compare carbines - the only other weapon type worth comparing - then I compared VS carbines against TR rifles. TR. Simply. Lose. However, I will admit, I'd prefer the latter suggestion to the former: rearrange the stats on TR weaponry, so that the 10 extra rounds are more necessary to the weapon, and less "extra" to the weapon made to compensate for lacking in another department: 125 damage per round maximum, higher RPMs overall, and lower recoil value's. Mmm... might want to tack on slightly lower reload times as well. Preferably the TR would still hit minimum damage at 65m, or the minimum damage range extended to 15m, reason being higher ranks of nanoweave screw over lower damage weapons harder than higher damage weapons in regards to damage fall off over distances.

I guess it should be mentioned that I recall a dev from SOE saying the real TR weapons aren't even in game yet. I can't tell if that's their subtle way of saying the servers WILL drop most of those rounds from registering or if they're still trying to find a balance to them. One can eat through 40 rounds pretty darn quick with the TRV... anything higher might require 50 rounds at least.