So when are you addig anti-air to game?

The thing about dual burster max is that 2-3 of them can shut down an air zone, and 4-5 will kill every flying thing in sight with great ease.

Now, atm this isn't a big issue because people dont have the dual yet (costs to much cert points), however the MAX suit is the easiest anti-air to spawn (besides lock on HA). The burster max is very very strong. Frankly too strong compared to the skyguard. The key is its not like a tank where you have to drive it to the battle. Spawn it anywhere with a AMS and its easy to clear air space. Frankly, the burster max should stay as is, the skyguard should receive a slight buff and then players should wait it out.

Seriously, 4-5 burstermax completely decimate, they are easy to maneuver, small, harder to see than skyguard etc...

The real issue is not even base turrets not being strong enough. Its that base turrets are not automated. Within 2-300 meters, base turrets should have automated anti-air. they should have to be destroyed at range by rocket pods to be able to get up in on a base.

oh and the majority of these damage assessments are complete crap. The devs should really just provide the numbers in the tool tips to avoid this stupidity.

If dual Burster MAXs were the ONLY form a AA in the game, you'd have a point.

They're not and that's really the reason why AA can only be as effective as it is currently: aircraft are a target for everything.

Infantry can target aircraft with AA rockets with impunity; the chances of an aircraft being able to tell where the HA is and return fire is negligible. That is why they aren't and shouldn't be very effective.

The ubiquitous flak turrets cost nothing and require zero skill. That is why they aren't and shouldn't be very effective.

At best, all these should ever be are temporary area denial for aircraft.

Other forms of AA require more risk and cost and are thus more effective.

Ground vehicles can take pot shots at aircraft and can use the landscape for cover, but can only be effective with a Skyguard which makes them more vulnerable to other ground units. That is why the Skyguard is fairly effective.

The dual Burster MAX user who is smart enough not to fire when the aircraft is looking at them and is smart enough to attack from an unexpected area is fairly safe from reprisal; you don't run in front view of a tank as a MAX and shoot it and expect not to die, so why would you in this case? Burster MAXs played correctly are already very effective at keeping aircraft away, but they don't get a lot of aircraft kills. Again, sitting on the ground waiting for aircraft to pass by is less risky and demands less skill than flying, so that is why it is not as effective or rewarding. To fire upon an aircraft, you are deciding to put yourself at risk for a reward, so don't be surprised if someone in an aircraft returns fire on you. If you only fire at them when they are looking away, they wont even be able to see you. You wont get many kills but you will ward them off without making yourself a target. Risk versus reward. It's that simple.

Lastly, flying aircraft yourself to hunt and counter enemy aircraft is the ultimate form of AA. It is the most risky, most demanding of skill, resources and certs and that is why it is, and always should be, the most effective form of AA.

Flying needs skill? Sorry but that's not true. Basically the only thing that can kill you while in air, is another aircraft. There is a skyguard/max shooting you? Afterburner and you're fine.

I have a skyguard and a rocket pod mossie. With the mossie it's simple:"oh, theres a tank/sunderer/infantry... let's empty the pods, kill, repeat or fly away depending on the situation. The only way i ever get killed is because some other aircraft is hunting me down.
Aircraft is literally effective against Tanks, Infantry, other aircraft.
The skyguard is effective against... nothing (well he may take down some fighter with a lot of luck).

I just sat around in my skyguard in a relatively good spot next to a huge fight. Luckily i got ignored by everything flying around so i had time to empty my chambers for around 15 minutes.

In that time (without any pause of fighting) i managed to get 1 assist on a lib and 1 assist on a scythe(the lib crashed).
Why?
a) i need to hit a whole clip into a small aircraft to kill it. Thats 50 shells.
b) To hit everything it needs to be close, coming my way, getting closer.

The spread on the skyguard is pretty horrible (it would be good if the aoe of the explosions were larger). The projectile speed might appear fast, but on the regular engagement distance it's not fast enough.

You try to aim ahead of some aircraft, you hit it, the guy hits shift (panicmode) so you need to find your aim again which is even further ahead, he breaks away (not going to escape in a straight line), so every shot in that time is a miss to around 80%.

Yeah, you die faster in a mossie/reaver/scythe compared to a lightning (in case you actually have a good spot... a guy with a rocket launcher is enough to take out your skyguard... or some guy with rocket pods) but the amount of damage you can dish out with a skyguard is just broken atm. one clip with an average player on both sides resulting in 25% damage to the aircraft is pretty horrible.

If a skyguard battles a reaver with rocketpods, the reaver wins.

I'm not worried about having to work with a coordinated force against AA - AA should be able to take down aircraft.

However, if I can't see the enemy shooting me purely because they don't render, then it feels bunk. Teammates can spot them with Q and they won't appear, because they don't render. I can launch some rockets to harass them, but it won't damage them, because they don't render. That isn't just air balance, that is broken. The same thing happens in infantry battles with snipers: enemies that they could otherwise kill are invulnerable due to not rendering, and enemies that are invulnerable due to not rendering kill you.

This lack of rendering in heavy battles can kill it. An approach that looks clear suddenly has 4 AA maxes that pop-in at 100m. It isn't wanting to be a "solo dogfight hero", its simply wanting to be able to see a threat when I'm staring directly at it.

I have no problem with making AA stronger, because it should be. My problem is with making AA stronger right now, in which you will exacerbate the rendering issue. An AA buff should be accompanied with rendering AA Maxes at a range equivalent to skyguards, and giving priority rendering to turret emplacements for aircraft. Otherwise piloting will be even worse in beta, because invisible invulnerable enemies will have extraordinary killing strength, which is just stupid.

For all the issues with aircraft, the one advantage infantry have is that they see aircraft long before the aircraft sees them due to rendering, not due to actually choosing an advantageous position. I understand not rendering infantry, but Maxes are rendered at the same distance. Being ambushed by Maxes standing out in the open because of rendering just makes you feel cheated, rather than out-played.

If you truly believe that then you have nothing to be complaining about.
If aircraft is giving you trouble just hop in an ESF and take care of it if flying is so easy.

I think you are missing the point of balancing things.

I enjoy flying, but I also want to enjoy using my skyguard, which i can't with the current balancing.

Not over exaggerating in the least, you can test it yourself, come to Jaeger, or hook me up with some USD to compensate me for my time. I am in no need to waste time proving something I do every day you can come see for yourself. You can keep being bad all you want I will keep being great at what I do I am not going to give you lessons on how to learn to play unless I am paid for it. If you want lessons though, we can work out a price tag and you can have whatever it is you need.

My only beef with AA right now is that the flak moves too slow. I can fire on a fighter at what I consider average distance (slightly smaller than my skyguard's crosshair) and they can turn out of the way long before the flak actually reaches them, provided I'm leading a proper distance already (which is it's own PITA.)

Basically, only dumb, predictable/still fighters ever get shot down by flak, unless there's a crap ton of AA in the area, then merely by volume compensating for inaccuracy does AA ever really land enough shots to kill anything. Regardless, AA is a thankless, unrewarding job right now. I'm literally losing out on valuable EXP gain sitting in a skyguard or burster MAX simply because they're far too specialized towards a specific target, and have to work really hard to bring it down.

I don't think the damage is too low, in fact I like how it feels when I do connect, but connecting is the hard part simply due to the MASSIVE lead I need to give my shots against a moving ESF and pray it doesn't raise or lower it's altitude, or adjust it's direction too drastically.

Don't go telling them how stuff really is man, these guys suffer under the belief that because they can't do it nobody can. Kids these days, lol.

DING DING DING!

You know what would fix all of this "Air is OP" stuff?

Getting rid of rocket pods. ESFs are supposed to be counters to Gals and Libs, not everything. Leave the A2G to the Libs...

Good thing you can't read, since my post already highlighted these issues that you decided to so conveniently pass over.

I think the problem is not that the AA flak is too weak but that the ESF have way too much health. Somehow the AA nerf also affected the after turret of the Liberator and it has become nigh impossible to kill one before it kills you and you can't really hit them with skyguards as the accuracy and range has been severely nerfed, the only way currently to get rid of air is to have more air. Libs and Galaxys are slow enough for dual burster MAX to at least scare them off but G2A missles are a complete joke and skyguards are useless. They need to buff the skyguards range to be higher than the MAX and reduce the ESF health and I'm sure it would make everything more fair

Yeah agree, buffing AA isn't the solution. Nerfing rocketpods is the solution.

I've been around since beta in september and the AA has never been better. It works completly as intended. 1 skyguard or 1 burster max with either way 1 or 2 bursters cannot lock down an entire area from ESF's. The game is about teamwork and coordination. If 1 1-handed burster is not enough then bring in 5 more. Simple as that. If 1 skyguard is not enough then bring in more(That's harder though since skyguards are 1000 certs but that can be fixed by just getting 1-handed burster maxes instead). Why not try a combination of G2A missles and flak?

Anyone complaining that 1 skyguard/burster max can't do crap agains ESF's have no idea what they are talking about. Long-range AA is really hard to use, which it is supposed to be! Medium-short range(for Aircraft NOT regular weapons!!!) it is devastating which it is supposed to be! Why is that? Simple... it's easier to hit a bigger target. I think it also does more damage because it does not loose damage over as much distance but Í'm not sure about that so don't take my word for it =)

For those of you complaining about the composite armor reducing flak. Get an ESF of your own and get in there and blow them up.
Get AA rockets for you ESF or G2A rockets for your Heavy and blast away. Sure they might have flares but that will cause them to retreat as intended allowing you time to set up a welcome-back-party of more bursters/skyguards or ESF's and blast them back to Planetside 1.

AA is perfect as it is. I play ESF all the time because I love to fly and I'm a pretty good piolet...except when mountains suddenly appear in front of me and pull me towards them! Scumbag mountains.
I get hammered by flak if I'm not careful. 1 2-handed burster or even a 1-handed burster is enough to kill me if I don't notice them and get too close but that burster has the weakness of not being able to do crap agains a tank or a sniper or just a few guys with pistols.


Summerize:
Basicly... If you can't kill a few ESF's with 1 burster or 1 2-handed burster then find another way to deal with it. The game provides you with infinit possibilities so stop complaining that the one that you keep using does not work.

We TR have a saying. If 1 bullet does not work then try a few more.
Here is that saying changed for the subject. If 1 burster does not work then get a few more.

Don't buff the AA. It is not needed. What is needed is for people to stop going the CoD, lonley wolf-style of gaming, and work together. It takes a while for that to happen. Why? Because the game just launched!

This is a very informative and well made thread. Well done mate!

EDIT: Saw someone asking for a Rocket Pod nerf instead of buffing the AA. Yes they do a lot of damage I agree but I'm not sure if nerfing the damage is good. When the AA was too powerfull in Beta but a damage nerf would break them, the clip was reduced by about 10-20 rounds(I think it was that many). Maybe that is something that can be done to the Pods IF they are doing too much damage. Reducing the clip lowers the damage dealt. But otherwise, same as above. Find another way of dealing with it.

I think you just pointed out every reason AA either needs to be buffed or A2G needs to be nerfed.

This statement right here is the basis of the entire problem, IMO. You have an ESF which can attack and frequently kill virtually anything on the battlefield or the skies above. Then you have AA MAX and Skyguards, which are limited to attacking ONLY air units and are essentially defenseless against everything else. But it is ok for them to not be rewarded with kills for specializing. It is ok for them to only temporarily chase off an enemy who will come back hunting specifically for them. Meanwhile, the ESF pilot can randomly rocketspam targets of opportunity with near impunity, confident in the knowledge that they can fly away from flak-based AA and repair and return.

So, using your risk vs reward model: ESF pilots - low risk, extremely high reward. AA MAX/Skyguard - high risk, low reward.

How is that balanced?

I don't see how a Risk-Reward argument can be vaild, in any form, in long term play of Planetside. The game encourges teamplay and what most people should do is join outfits/guilds/clans like in most MMO's. As a memeber of an outfit you will occasionally be asigned the roll of Burster MAX, Lib Piolet, Galaxy Piolet, Sundy driver. All of these get little to no certs but all are incredibly usefull and provide a crucial roll in teamplay(which, again, is needed).

Saying that you shouldn't go Burster Max because there is no point as you get little to no reward is like saying you should not piolet a galaxy or lib because of the low point gain. They all get Xp and certs at a small rate yet they are so crucial.

Reward is ultimetly not was Planetside is about BUT it is what most people look for when playing.

"A single arm burster can bring an ESF to half armor in less than a second."

Stopped reading at this point. Troll harder next time.