Alert Win Rates

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gobbu, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. JibbaJabba

    Betelgeuse = most overrated weapon in the game :p

    You die not because the weapon is good, but because the player behind it is.
  2. Campagne

    I mean, it also helps that the weapon is really good. :p
    • Up x 2
  3. JibbaJabba


    It's not though.

    Without the Orion attachments it sucks. Hipfire in particular and it has a smaller "clip" than the Orion as well.

    It has one feature that makes it handy: It self reloads while using a secondary or rocket. That makes it useful for high KPM farmers. I use it myself sometimes when out doing solo play. During Ops where I have ammo packs... back to the Orion. It's simply a better gun.
  4. Campagne

    Virtually the only difference between it and the Orion is a rail attachment. Grip, laser, or heat mechanic. Maybe a suppressor if one particularly cared. Almost a moot point these days though.

    I don't know where or why this rumour started, but that's the only difference. The effective magazine size is identical at 50 consecutive shots to empty/overheat and all recoil and ADS and hipfire accuracies are identical as well. Every single base stat of either of the two are the exact same when not considering the heat mechanic. (Heat recovery verses reload times, etc.)

    Shocking to me that I seem to be the only one around here who knows this when I have almost never even played as the VS. You say you have it yourself and yet you don't know the difference?
    • Up x 1
  5. TR5L4Y3R


    VS doesn´t get "just" the best stuff ... they did get their fair share of "meh" things ..

    but realy the weaponpool of NC isn´t as bad as some people may claim
    NC does have it´s fare share of easy to use yet strong weapons

    - realy the primary NC problem would be that heavy assaults with the gausssaw (powerfull once decked out in attachemeants but still punishing on misses) have a default LMG unsuited for beginners and novices to which it is usualy recomended to go with the GD 22S instead, it has been even suggested that the GD 22S should be the NC´s starting heavy assault LMG .. all other classes however have apropriate startingweapons, even better the NC infil actualy starts with a boltaction unlike TR and VS ...

    - the vanguard is regarded as the least performing of the MBTs while it has the biggest alphapunch on its mainturrets it seams to have the least DPS and many consider its shieldability and the higher HP questionionable (cause of repairtimes) than realy helpfull, as far as i understand it´s also the least mobile (except prowler in anchormode) ...

    - maxxes have been in weird spot for years but recently NC maxxes got hit with a nerfsledgehammer to the point were NS gorgons are more usefull on them than any of the NCmaxshotguns as basicaly they got their range cut in half and they lack in ammo to the point were you find yourslef reloading more often than downing infantry..
    the arguement for it has been made that NC maxxes unlike the other 2 can oneshot infantry upclose which however was the ONLY area the NCMAX was good at .. at range and now especialy after the nerf NC maxes against the other 2 are simply outperformed at range AND the NC max now is even bad at what it was supposed to be good at ..

    - there are some arguements that to some the reaver might not be the most favorable of the ESFs cause of its larger frontprofile
    but i think the differences between ESFs isn´t THAT severe that the reaver falls short in performance

    - regarding ES topgunturrets NC may have one unfavorable turret with the mjölnir .. then again many players rather take the NS halberd when they can .. VS go with the saron, TR with the Vulcan ...

    still aside from the reaver these are merely 3 or 4 examples were NC might be lacking with the vanguard MBT Heavy assault gausssawusers probably having the most impact but other than that i would say the general NC arsenal would be similarly as good as the other 2 faction arsenals

    sooooo realy i would say it rather comes down to players
  6. Demigan

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,7235&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2019-11-13

    Yes definitely, that's why it's used more often than any of it's contemporaries at any point in time (I don't know if they are all contemporaries but things like the dreaded Anchor and Gauss SAW definitely count as weapons people have claimed to be superior).

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,7235&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2019-11-13

    Or that it scores better at any point in time, way better than any of it's contemporaries.

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,7235&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2019-11-13

    It also has an obviously higher usage amongst the top 25% users of the faction, which isn't true for the NC and TR as their weapons aren't as clear-cut. I mean isn't it telling that more people in the Q4 area use the Betelgeuse than the Orion? Why would they do that if the Orion is superior?

    https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,7235&startDate=2016-07-07&endDate=2019-11-13

    And that still remains true for the Q3. Huh it seems like the Betelgeuse is simply a superior weapon. Basically you are pulling off a small-scale version of "but we have higher skilled players in the faction" but in this case just for the weapon.
    The weapon scores better at most points in time than any other weapon or is a close second at any important statistic. There are also more users each day compared to the TR and NC counterparts, so less chance of accidental statistical offshoots that can muddle the statistics and more people who actually achieve the weapon and keep using it in the first place. The only conclusion is that the weapon is superior rather than it's users.

    Edit: About the magazine size.
    It has 1000 heat capacity and expends 20 heat per shot. That's 50 shots to max it's heat.
    Orion has 50 shots per magazine.
    Even if the Betelgeuse has 40 bullets per magazine and the wiki is inaccurate then still you wouldn't be holding the trigger throughout the battle. It regens 12 shots per second, so just a second of letting go or a quick jump behind cover before popping up again to reset your COF and stop your enemy from firing gets you more bullets than the Orion has per magazine even if it has 40 shots per magazine.
    • Up x 3
  7. JibbaJabba



    I'm not gonna wall of text you about this.

    I'm well aware of the reload mechanic. It keeps you ready at full clip, and it reloads mid fight while using a secondary. That said it has less bullets per clip than the Orion when the **** hits the fan and it's time to go.

    It's hipfire sucks, it can't run a silencer or foreward grip. The orion IS a better gun.

    I've got a whole outfit of guys with the Betelgeuse. It's a farming tool for when running solo and being lazy. When it comes time to actually win at the game everyone sets it down and picks up the Orion or something else.

    The reason it seems so OP:
    1. Everyone using it has a minimum 5k kills so as a group will have more experience in the game than some other group.
    2. Super high KD farmers use it when out farming. They would still be super high KD without it though.
    3. That's the way memory works. When the Orion kills you it's not notable so you don't note it.

    And if you don't believe me? Ok, you win.

    I ain't fighting, just telling you how I see it.
  8. Demigan

    The Orion has 50 bullets per clip.
    The Betelgeuse has 1000 heat capacity and spends 20 heat per shot for 50 shots total.

    So how can you say that the Betelgeuse has less bullets per clip?

    The hipfire is just as good as the Orion. It is literally a carbon-copy except you cant equip a laser sight or forward grip and has the massively good heat mechanic. So its basically a trade-off: heat mechanic versus lasersight/forwards grip. The statistics point out that the loss of hipfire accuracy on the Betelgeuse does not outweigh the combat readiness of the heat mechanic.

    I have a site which lists how many users it attracts on a given day and their stats. Taking that all in the Betelgeuse is superior to just about any other weapon in the game including Orion variants on the NC and TR. I would take this site over the anecdotal evidence you give, or even the anecdotal evidence of your outfit.

    This should then also be true for other directive weapons, which it isnt. Also we can see how the Betelgeuse users have 4x more kills per unique than the Orion users. The Godsaw vs Gauss SAW users see a 2x increase and the Carv to Butcher difference is also only a 2ox increase. This isnt explainable by simple "they farm with Betelgeuse" and it also begs the question why would a weapon so good at farming be worse for winning?

    Since you have given me nothing tangible to believe aside from hearsay anecdotes, why should I believe you in this case?
    I've valued your opinion and words many times before, but I see nothing here to believe you right now.

    Ok but did you consider that I cant feel what you feel or see what you see? That you havent really transferred that sight? That you need proof to convince me of that seeing rather than tell me and hope I suddenly accept it simply because you say you feel it?

    I understand that how something feels is incredibly important, it doesnt matter how balanced something is when people dont feel it is balanced and you should always make sure that people feel good about something in a game, including the victims of your weapon. But your feeling doesnt even change that. You feel the Betelgeuse is the superior farm weapon and the Orion the superior weapon to win fights with, however that works, but everyone else fighting against either feel the Betelgeuse is superior anyway and all the statistics back this up.
  9. JibbaJabba

    Imma tell you where I stopped reading...

    "
    The hipfire is just as good as the Orion. It is literally a carbon-copy except .."

    Except it's not... which you go on to explain then act like it ain't explained. I'm done. This crap wears me out. Now I gotta argue that a gun without laser doesn't hipfire as well as one with a laser..... I'm not doing it. It's bullcrap that you ask me to.

    Two guns on the ground. You gotta choose one then 1v1 against the other. You gonna pick the betel or the orion?
  10. Demigan

    If you had just read on...
    Also the betel. Hipfire is cool and all but its an LMG not a Carbine, its ADS is its primary tool and whenever you are in close enough range where ADS becomes difficult your hipfire is more than accurate enough without a lasersight.
    But that heat mechanic... oh thats GOOD.

    Just go back and please read the rest of my previous post.
    • Up x 2
  11. TobiMK

    Only Forumside brainlets would come up with the idea that alert winrate correlates to faction balance. What decides the outcome of an alert in the vast majority of cases is the tiny bit of leadership that is still left, the distribution of warpgates and simple blind luck of which zergfit happens to zerg the most effectively.

    It's common knowledge (at least in informed parts of the community) that NC overall has the best gear, at least infantry-wise. VS is not (and never has been) the strongest faction in terms of equipment, no matter how many times people try to invent stupid conspiracy theories that supposedly prove otherwise. As soon as someone begins their argument with ******** like better accuracy or heat ammo, you can basically stop reading already.

    If (and that's a big 'if') faction balance would significantly impact alert outcomes, NC would perform a lot better all of a sudden. But as it stands, that is not the case.

    (I'll also add that the historical alert win data that people used here, namely ps2alerts, is severely outdated.)
    • Up x 1
  12. Campagne

    Do you have any evidence or reasoning to suggest this is at all true? That the rotating WGs and dumb luck somehow strongly favor one faction over another, and that all factions across all servers across the world experience the exact same amounts and distributions of competent leadership-oriented players of which are disproportionately allocated amongst the factions in a uniform pattern? Surely it is less of a stretch that better equipment results in more victories.

    Gee, I wonder which factions you play. :rolleyes: Regardless, providing a number of examples to support your argument is probably a pretty good idea. Especially so if you're making baseless assertions about an opinion being "common knowledge."

    And lastly, the data may be aged but the trend has persisted for the entirety of the game's seven-year lifespan and relatively little has changed in regards to balance (or really anything else) since that time.
  13. pnkdth

    The game was originally meant as being competitive (MLG collaboration). NC gear did not work well with the live server meta but VERY well in the competitive meta (Server/Lane Smash). In this setting there is very little to suggest the NC gear in inferior (quite the opposite) yet in a live play setting (where things are more chaotic, usually anyways) the other two factions fare better.

    This is also the birth of a popular assumption, "NC are not very organised", because if they can do it really well in competitive games then why aren't the NC doing it on live? 1st off, I'd say it is not very rewarding in terms of certs. It takes effort and is energy-consuming. This is what I mean when I say the design of NC and live meta clash with each other. The competitive meta has a clear start/finish with a clear objective that everyone involved has signed a social contract to collaborate towards a common goal. Live server play has no clear start/finish, several and branching objectives, and can be pretty damn random when it comes to goals (diametrically opposed ones too like winning an alert versus staying in a good fight and lose the alert).

    I really do not understand the focus on VS in this thread since both VS/TR have had a very similar run of success in terms of global alert wins and NC is the faction which sticks out. I mean, VS have always been the banter faction (VS Memerald in particular) in terms of using cheese-tactics and often having a more tryhard/WAAC (win at all cost)-mentality, regardless of how fun it was to face. DIG VS on Miller was hated for their redeploy-side pop-dump tactics.

    As for a history lesson, speaking as someone who was there, when I joined in beta in Sept 2012 there was already an established player-base complete with outfits and rivalries, memes, and incorrect assumptions/notions about which faction was best/worst. There definitely wasn't a reset button when the live servers went online. Heck, I'm still in the same outfit I joined in beta (even if that outfit is now dead).

    Also, there is no shame in saying "I don't know", there shouldn't be anyways.
  14. Xhaleon

    VS are full of tryhards (especially from the useOrionlmao days).
    TR are half-half tryhards.
    NC are mostly just living free. Didn't we also anecdotally have the highest random TK-for-funsies rate?
  15. Zizoubaba

    This topic comes up regularly, and I've participated in discussions on the subject many times. I've done a bit of research on it too, and have written pages and pages on the matter.

    It's actually a very interesting topic because there are so many angles, so many ways of looking at it, from pure mathematics (in particular statistics) to PlanetSide 2 knowledge about how things work to human behaviour and more.

    But I won't bore you with all that and will be as synthetic as possible while answering your question :

    --> if all factions on all servers had the same win rate (of 33%), that would be an issue, a big issue, and in normal circumstances, would be extremely rare. Test it yourself with any "balanced" random illustration,. The reason it would be an issue is that it would mean that there was no room at all for random but not just random, unpredictable variables, such as human behaviour, giving no chance, for example, for a group of good players, to have an impact even if fighting a group of new players.

    --> most people making a thread on this topic are basically frustrated because they feel that their faction is always losing. They check the stats websites and confirm how they feel. They then conclude that it is because their faction has inferior gear, whether it be weapons, skills, or vehicles.

    It's a simple and logic thought process, very common. But it's wrong.




    (This is the answer to your question) ;

    There are A LOT of things that influence a faction's win rate. I mean A LOT, like A HELL OF A LOT. I'm not going to list them, but I can if you ask me too. I'll give you one though, and in my opinion, it is the number one influence, that is active outfits, active objective oriented squads or platoons. In short, organised groups of players actively trying to win. That's the game changer.

    A random zerg will push down a lane with a million players inside it not realising some small squad is cutting them off 3 bases back. That's what wins or loses an alert, it makes absolutely no difference at all whether they have NC VS or TR gear. ZERO difference.

    Gear and skill balance is one of those things that may have an influene on how a faction performs, but is by FAR not the most important, I mean it's tiny, particularly since (this is what the debate usually centers on in these threads) these differences are really small, they really don't have an impact. (people will debate this point for ever and ever, but it's not the issue anyway, like I said, gear and skill balance is by far not the most important thing to influence whether a faction wins or not.)

    So to answer your question, (because I'm trying to be synthetic but I can elaborate) :

    NC may or may not lose more alerts on all servers, let's say for the sake of argument that they do.

    It's nothing to do with the gear, or the balance between one faction and the other.
  16. Zizoubaba

    PS. Forgot to add :

    With regards to the gear balance debate, you're looking at the wrong statistics.

    If you want to determine whether a faction if performing on this specific subject, you don't look at whether that faction wins alerts or not.

    You look at whether they kill people or vehicles. You look at stats like KD ratio, amongst many other stats, but not, certainly not whether the entire faction wins or loses. There's simply much too many more important influences for that question.
  17. Scroffel5

    NC sometimes has good leadership on Emerald. I honestly don't know why we lose so much, but we tend to win when we have the good leadership going and when TR and VS are more occupied fighting each other than us. The thing is, I think we all have a little bit of bias if we argue weapons. We may think that the others are better than ours just because we play with ours. We just need more and more empire specific weapons that have a specific stat or power in mind, weapons that do different things as compared to the others, so there isn't a good comparison. The weapons aren't the only thing that sets the factions apart, but its the one that comes to mind most often.
  18. JudgeNu

    It has been a snowball effect since day one
    I joined at the end of the first year and hear is my opinion i have formulated during this time.
    I say these things from time to time and no one ever disputes it. (or comments for that matter)

    The type of players that are part of the "Elite" know that every advantage helps.
    Many of you know that Pre-mades are a huge advantage against PUGs.


    Here are my reasons I believe that the VS Faction and traits were a draw to these players and began the snowball effect.

    1. ZoE - It was so OP at one time they ended up nerfing it into the ground but it took them around 2 years? to do this maybe longer.

    2. PPA - Imagine PPA on a MAG with nice blast radius from 300m away. It took them a bit longer to nerf this and iirc it was mostly because of AV Mana Turret was at 300m max. Not to mention also PPA on Scythe.

    3. Magrider - Magriders mobility exacerbated the above and still is quite a nuisance if you can imagine pre-nerf.

    4. Default Black Camo - Just another drop in the advantage bucket.

    Also i will mention these other factors that personally I am not sure about but were quite the topic.

    No bullet drop
    .75 ADS Orion or Betelgeuse idr.
    How many times do you get killed by a VS HA?

    This is all just my thoughts and I could be wrong and you are free to tell me.
    I am not saying VS Faction is invincible I am just saying as stated above my reason VS Faction is what it is today.
  19. Zizoubaba

    you're pretty much all wrong....

    I'll repeat myself, but in different words:

    Even if a faction's weapons were stronger, it would have no impact on whether the entire faction wins or loses an alert.

    A 10 man squad with inferior weapons would often contribute much more to alert victory than 48-96 zerg with better weapons but absolutely no alert awareness.

    Better weapons would impact a particular encounter, but those encounters are never fair anyway, there's never the exact same population to mention only that variable.

    A faction's weapons has no impact on alert victory.

    All these "x faction" has better guns debates are interesting. But they miss the point.
  20. Nuggz

    I've spent most of my playtime on NC (Connery) since the early days and I can confidently say... It's mostly because NC doesn't organize properly. NC ignores alerts to fight useless zerg battles CONSTANTLY. NC is full of a bunch of nobs who think mindlessly grinding xp/certs (which you can earn at any time) is better than earning ISO which can only be gotten from alerts, not to mention the cert reward for continent lock victory.

    Even when NC leadership during alerts is actively attempting to win, PL's will push straight through the middle of the map, cutting off lattice lines between the TR/VS and then wonder why they get double teamed. NC platoon leads often obsess on unwinnable fights for far too long getting you farmed when you should move out. NC while in 2nd place is CONSTANTLY stupid enough to attack the 3rd place faction, which isn't pushing them at all, which then causes them to get double teamed. The 2nd place team attempting to WG the 3rd place team during an alert goes beyond stupid.

    More often than not the NC will be dead with no active platoons or just semi-active platoons with maybe 50% of the platoon at any one objective. However if I switch to either my TR/VS character there is almost always an active platoon of some sort running at far greater than 50% compliance. The outfits on NC attempting to steer the herd are just too small, on Connery at least there is no outfit that can match the size and activeness of TWC2 or Space Pigs.

    My experience on Emerald differs from this in that the NC are more organized there (from what I've seen) and tend to have their **** together more fully.

    Simple rule of thumb: The faction that refuses to leave the biolab idiot "farm" is hardly ever going to win anything.
    • Up x 1