Give SUNDIES a COUNTER to LIBERATORS

what you're suggesting, is having 6 players (2 sundies with 2 gunners each + 1 driver each) immobilised in 2 sundies for the duration of the fight...

That really (really) isn't realistic..

Because 1 person in an MBT will have over 200,000 SPH in that session just killing each one as they exit the vehicle bay?

Get deploy shield, use flak guns, have infantry aim at the lib with lockons.

Tbh, the lib shouldn't just be countered by a sundi, if anything there at ends with different situations. Skytank verses ground infantry spawner.

The ultimate solution of any problems: give sunderer 2 Vulcans, 1 Titan 150 AP and 2 Skyguards. Add wraith stealth. And Harasser's maneuverability. I think it would be enough for a start
That would be good for any G2G, G2A and G2everything fights.

Oh yes, and add anti-infiltrators automatic cannon.

Nah bro, i'm saying 2 people. 1 person in each sundy.
Try it out ^^

Everyone uses deploy shield if it isn't a stealth sundy, to suggest using it is kinda like say people should walk with their feet

Flak guns I've been using since the Walker nerf. They are really good (REALLY good) against low flying ESF, but they suck against libs. They suck against libs a lot, with all the stats maxed out, do you know how many full rounds it takes to kill a lib?

What I mean is, aim, start shooting, keep shooting, keep shooting, keep shooting, yes, keep shootijng, OK RELOAD. wait for it, thats 1.

Do you know how many of those rounds it takes to kill a lib? Bonus question, do you know, in time equivalent, how many of those rounds it take for a lib to destroy your sundy? (I'll give you a hint, it actually depends, it's usually less than 2, but it can be less than 1... edit--> that means shoot, reload, and your dead.).

Lockons "tickle" a Lib, I'm not gona patronise you and ask you the same question, let's just say that a lib will annihilate a sundy befor it can get two roudns in (and before any heavy with lock on can shoot more than 2 rockets which won't do anything at all to the lib)

I mean I'm sorry if I sound on the defensive, but it kind of annoys me that people assume I'm asking for advice. I'm not, I'm experienced, I've played for years and I've been using sundies from day one.

ohhhh

I mis read what you wrote hahahha

I would LOVE that :xD

What's the main role of Sunderer?
Mobile spawn point and transport.
What's the main role of Liberator?
Anti-ground gunship.
I think that says enough.

Liberators typically have 2 people.
2 people in a Sundy with AA guns should be able to kill a Liberator.
If you "don't see it coming" then its a problem with tunnel vision and bad situational awareness.

Yes please!!!

Actually off the top of my head, I remember that libs had a -75% damage modifier, rangers do 65 flak, so 102 shots, within the 2 gun threshhold.


Again, skytank verses ground vehicle spawner.

ok lets go, one by one


Point of sundy -> spawn (when sundy dies, fight is usually over).

Role of liberator -> destroy all vehicles

That doesn't say enough you dumb dumb, that says nothing at all,. Does anyone with more than 21 hours game time not know this?

Your logic, with that argument, is the same as saying :

"What's the role of a infiltrator?" -----> TO ASSASSINATE
"What's the role of a medic? " ---> TO REZ AND HEAL

"I think that says enough".

see? its nonsense...

Next on the list :

2 people in a sundy with AA guns "ARE NOT" able to kill a liberator. What you said is wrong. Not only that, but the "how many people are manning the vehicle" argument is also totally ********, it was most used when justifying the strength of harrassers against lightning tanks.

Lastly, if you think tunnel vision is the only reason you don't see a lib coming, then you lack ('a lot) of experience.


_______


It does not matter, I repeat, it does not matter how many people are in a vehicle, what their role is and all that crap.

What matters is ingame situations that happen all the time, every day, regularly, not a one off thing and the fact of the matter is, Liberators OBLITERATE sundies. THERES NO DEBATE on that point, no one is doubting that (except you it seems), EVERYONE KNOWS ITS TRUE..

A one man or two man sundy has NO COUNTER to libs. Its a fact, a simple, obvious fact.

Devs probably thought it was ok because of how they think (or were hoping) that things would balance out in situation ;when integrating other players, such as infantry with lock ons, allies in skyguard tanks or other ESFS.

And I can see the logic in that, cause fights usually have infantry, or °ESFs, and that kind of logic often works, but in this case it does not (the main reason is that no heavies use lock ons -thats also what makes ESF air to infantry so OP, it's balanced for heavies using lock ons and other counters, but they don't use them.

The "balance" of a vehicle should not depend to such a degree on anything and everything except that vehicle... Saying that the Lib is "balanced" against a sundy because the sundy can be defended by a ESF or a skyguard IS ********..

It's like people say "oh but if you got a squad of tanks and ESFS then they can defend the sundy.

YEAH, and if I had a ******* platoon of skyuguards, I might be able to kill the lib but how is that relevant?

At max altitude, should be 300 rounds to kill a lib and 5 dalton rounds to kill a sundy, barring an engineer repairing the sundy.
If the engineer's repair tool is maxed, it should be 9 hits to kill the sundy.

So roles don't matter... ok...
Why can't a Sunderer fight a Vanguard?
Lightning?
Harasser?
Where's the counter?
It's almost as if the Sunderer isn't meant to be the best combat vehicle capable of killing anything.

My flash doesn't stand a chance against a Lib. Even if my flash is 2/2 and it's a solo lib. It takes a full minute of shooting it with a fury, and the lib kills me in 1 shot with a Dalton. Tell me how that's fair. Nerf Lib plz!

It's the same for all those vehicles. "All things being the same", any tank should be able to kill a sundy easy, but like I said in a previous post, with a bit of experience, a bit of skill, and a bit of luck, I can can sometimes if not often fight off a tank, unless he's so far away neither the sundy guns or rockets can reach him. Or, worst case scenario a couple engineers can often repair the sundy faster than the tank damages the sundy, or at least slow it down and gain time for allies to realise the sundy is being attacked and come help.

Against a Lib? No chance, it shoots the nose gun, comes close, points to the sky and a second later the sundy is gone.

I'm not suggesting sundies should be able to consistently destroy Libs, I'm suggesting they'd at least be given a fighting chance. Tanks destroy sundies, and I'm fine with that, harrassers also and I'm a little less fine with that, but it's still much more balanced than libs, right now, and since they nerfed ground to air and buffed the lib, sundies don't (they may on paper, but in situation they don't) have a fighting chance.

I may be using the term incorrectly, or you may be using it incorrectly, but when I spoke of a "round", I meant all the the shots you fire until you reload.

Basically every reload marks the end of a round and the start of a new one.

Just use the term magazine.

You won't fight off a tank with a Sunderer unless you outnumber him or he's bad.
Same applies to Liberator.

Why are you less ok with Harassers killing sunderers?
You said roles don't matter. So Harasser isn't meant to be the fast hit and run vehicle.

What about the ANT? Some people might think it's a construction vehicle meant for harvesting and transporting cortium but no, there are no roles.
ANT has only 1 gun and even less hp than Sunderer. You should seek justice for ANTs.
And Flash?

Yeah, I will (fight off a tank with a sundy). I'll lose most of the time, that's how it's supposed to be, I'm fine with that, but like I said a few times already, with a bit of experience, a bit of skill, and a bit of luck, there's still a good chance. (in case you're wondering I'm not just shooting at it with the sundy gun). But more importantly, it takes time, a lot of time -even with anti vehicle rounds- to kill a shield sundy with a lightning.

Against a lib, not only do I have no chance at all, but it takes hardly any time. It takes 10 seconds to re-deploy. If I'm not at the sundy waiting for it (which is silly to think that when attacking a base, I should be at my sundy the whole time) and I hear the sound of lib guns, the sundy is usually gone before 5 seconds has passed.

IMO the Harrassers topic deserves a big wall of text, and I've written a few already about them. I suppose that I could try and sum it up with these points : a) they are too "noob friendly" b) they are very cheap c) they are ridiculous and lastly d) they are much too strong, they go way past "harrassing".

In all of these cases, my point of view is that balance should allow space for skill and experience, those two things should be rewarded, and in many cases in PS2, they are. Just as with a bit of talent, you can fight off a harrasser, or a tank, the Lib confrontation leaves no space for that.

In my experience, ANTS have no chance against sundies. That's because they have the same guns. When I've seen Ants kills sundies it's when they do so from far away and you can't hear them shoot, and the HP of your sundy is going down without you noticing it, or if they are a little creative and place some c4 on the sundy, then drive off, kill the shield and then donate the c4. But what you said about them (that they are a construction vehicle meant for harvesting and transporting cortium) is (imo) exactly what their role is.

Flash is, in my opinion a great example, because it rewards talent, it rewards skill and experience. A good flash player makes the flash REALLY op against sundies, the TTK depending on the gun is really short. In most cases a flash is dead as soon as it starts shooting, but in the hands of a skilled player, a one manned sundy will really struggle to defend itself against a flash even with the cloak nerf that it got recently. But if you were wondering about its role, I'd say it's transport which, as a side note, if you ever notice the voice pack message when you spot a Harrasser, it calls it a "enemy transport", which it clearly isn't.

Your doing it wrong, you don't fire bullets at a lib but the flash itself loaded with c4!